nightfreight

JJ,

I agree with almost everything you said. However, how can you blame the consumer? Many of us think that that the big 3 product is junk and we choose to buy a better product. Is that our fault?

FDXLAG

If you think I am counting on my Fedex pension being there in 15 years you must be crazy or a member of the ALPA retirement commitee (not necessarily mutually exclusive).

Jetjok

The question is: if Detroit produced their oversized/overpriced/poor quality/low fuel economy vehicles, and nobody bought them, do you really think that they would just continue to produce them? That's why the consumer is also at fault. I agree with you, that the consumer should base his buying decisions on quality, as well as a host of other measurements, but alas, we all don't make our decisions that way. I have always bought cars based on their quality, and as such have almost never been disappointed. I've had a number of Japanese vehicles which were great, but for the past 10 years or so, I've enjoyed Mercedes and of course my antique Porsche. The only U.S. made car I will ever own will be a hybrid or combination electric/liquid natural gas vehicle, and so I hope that our car companies will survive, if for no other reason than so that the future technology for those motors and engines doesn't die too. My wife on the other hand loves her Detroit sh!tbox, but that's her.

JJ

767pilot

I can't agree with your first premise. What difference is their hourly wage if their productivity is high enough to support it? In any event, neither of the two issues that you brought up is the problem of anyone but management.

FDXLAG

Worker no. Isn't the UAW equal partners with management and therefore deserve equal blame. Or am I mistaken about the contract signing press conference where everyone stands up and says what a great deal this is and how this partnership will continue to make the best cars yada yada yada?

767pilot

Not counting on your medical benefits either? Shipping discount? Free pop corn on visits from the home?

FDXLAG

You don't think we will have socialized med in 15 years? Regardless, according to our R&I guys, all those things you keep mentioning are fully funded by todays shipping not tomorrows. There won't be a fdxlag retirement surcharge on the rubber dog doo shipped from the US to China 15 years from now.

nightfreight

767,

I think it might also be the workers problem. If the company goes under, they have a big problem. I don't think it is the time for them to draw the line in the sand. If they (big 3) appeared to have their stuff together, they just might have got some government cheese. After Congress passed a very unpopular bailout that was going to save the financial system, they don't seem have to the nuggets to pass an unpopular bailout for the big 3. The UAW hasn't helped themselves at all. Instead of appearing to be helpful, they are saying it isn't their fault and they won't help. Many of us taxpayers saying we won't help if you don't help yourself. If they want to go down swinging, that's their choice.


JJ,

Again, I wonder why Detroit produces the autos they make. They obviously aren't that popular or they wouldn't need a bailout. I don't see Honda, Toyota, BMW, or Mercedes asking for a handout. Right now they couldn't hardly give their cars away....

Jetjok

767Pilot,

As I mentioned, I'm not blaming labor for this mess, but you've got to realize that the cost of direct labor (those workers who directly touch the product, in the planning, manufacturing, or distributing processes) is a major expense in the cost of the product. That transcribes, in the case of automobiles, directly into the sticker price of the vehicle. So if you're paying, for example, $3000 in labor costs for a vehicle, that vehicle, on average will be more expensive to buy, than say a vehicle whose direct labor costs were $2500.

Is the UAW wrong in trying to secure as much in pay and benefits for their members? Of course not, that's their job. But they (the union) need to realize that higher pay and long term, unsecured benefits, for their members, has a direct result in raising the cost, and at the same time, dropping the desirability of their product.

As for Detroit producing vehicles that people actually want to drive, they do. It's just that they still haven't learned the lessons of the 70's, or perhaps they just don't want to produce products that are high in quality; low in cost per mile; and the right size for today's consumers, in today's environment. Now that's managements' problem.

JJ

HercDriver130

Part of the problem is that GM has something like 7500 dealers....Toyota 1500... and toyota outsells them..... I understand that dealers are independent businessmen but maybe they have gone to far with the size of the dealer networks...