777 Pay= Airbus Pay FDX
09-28-2008, 01:40 AM
#71
On Reserve
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: 777 Captain
Posts: 17
Uncle Fred's gonna get another out of seniority debacle similar to our recent LOA fiasco. If the pay's the same, we're going to see junior folks doing it. Circadian nightmares, constant checkrides and boo coo ionizing radiation for squat. I wonder what the insurance company underwriters will think of that? Oh yes, and I don't have the special skills needed for all the exotic locale decision making that will be required. According to JL we're all REE TAH DED and should be pitied. STL pm out and backs will be just fine thanks. 777 is not on my standing bid
09-28-2008, 07:51 AM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: seated beer curl
Posts: 406
Absolutely. The pay should be based on seat and longevity. It's not like there is any additional responsibility or workload just because one plane has a higher payload. Also, pilots aren't salespeople so, the pay shouldn't be "commission" based....so to speak. And remember, I said in one airline.
This would also allow a senior pilot to bid smaller aircraft that might have more desirable bases, schedules, routes etc. and not have it affect their pay.
This would also allow a senior pilot to bid smaller aircraft that might have more desirable bases, schedules, routes etc. and not have it affect their pay.
09-28-2008, 09:23 AM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,931
Absolutely. The pay should be based on seat and longevity. It's not like there is any additional responsibility or workload just because one plane has a higher payload. Also, pilots aren't salespeople so, the pay shouldn't be "commission" based....so to speak. And remember, I said in one airline.
This would also allow a senior pilot to bid smaller aircraft that might have more desirable bases, schedules, routes etc. and not have it affect their pay.
This would also allow a senior pilot to bid smaller aircraft that might have more desirable bases, schedules, routes etc. and not have it affect their pay.
To pretend a pilot's salary has nothing to do with the revenue their work generates is, well, LeftWing thinking. Your screen name is appropriate.
Let's just give everyone a big payraise with greater than COL every year because everyone did a great job on their checkrides and because their education and obvious intelligence deserve it. Nevermind the whole profit vs. loss thingee. Wow...
Last edited by Gunter; 09-28-2008 at 09:28 AM.
09-28-2008, 01:40 PM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: MD11 FO, ANC
Posts: 1,098
Time to press the issue then
That very question was axed at a MEM hub-turn union meeting. The answer was something to the effect of, "We've agreed by secret handshake that the 30 day period has not begun." Of course, that was well over a month ago. And, I think we were hoping for more progress in talks. Same ole, same ole.
worst that could happen is that the arbitrator gives us current widebody rates....right?
best case, the arbitrator awards us something higher than current widebody rates.
seems like with the company immobile on the 777 being just another widebody - we have nowhere to go but up from that with an arbitrator.
what am I missing? why would we not press the issue at this point?
maybe we are, and the union just hasn't "informed us" about it yet....
09-28-2008, 01:41 PM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,199
...especially with the current overmanning situation, min BLG lines, and whispers/threats of more excess bids and "furlough the junior guys",
...even if they can't get enough junior guys to HKG at wide-body FO rates, they won't have that same problem in MEM.
09-28-2008, 01:43 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,199
Correct me if I'm wrong, but......
1) still no payrate established for the 777
2) the company can put the 777 into service at whatever payrate they want
3) if they do #2, then, according to the CBA section 26.K. when the company and the union finally do agree on a payrate, it will be applied retroactively
4) also according to 26.K. if the parties have initiated "conferences" and they haven't resulted in an agreement - after 30 days, the issue goes to a System Board (made up of an equal # of company and union members plus a "neutral" arbitrator)
5) the decision of the System Board is imposed on both parties and applied retroactively
so.....my question is.......where are we now in that process?
are we just having "friendly discussions" with the company? (which don't seem to be going anywhere) or have we elevated it to the level of "official conferences"?
and, shouldn't the System Board be the next step?
does convening a System Board favor either side on this issue?
eventually, doesn't there have to be a rate set and agreed to by both parties?
1) still no payrate established for the 777
2) the company can put the 777 into service at whatever payrate they want
3) if they do #2, then, according to the CBA section 26.K. when the company and the union finally do agree on a payrate, it will be applied retroactively
4) also according to 26.K. if the parties have initiated "conferences" and they haven't resulted in an agreement - after 30 days, the issue goes to a System Board (made up of an equal # of company and union members plus a "neutral" arbitrator)
5) the decision of the System Board is imposed on both parties and applied retroactively
so.....my question is.......where are we now in that process?
are we just having "friendly discussions" with the company? (which don't seem to be going anywhere) or have we elevated it to the level of "official conferences"?
and, shouldn't the System Board be the next step?
does convening a System Board favor either side on this issue?
eventually, doesn't there have to be a rate set and agreed to by both parties?
...the answers need to be clearly communicated to us by our Union.
Without it, we have no hope to understand any leverage we "may" have.
09-28-2008, 01:50 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 1 on big twin
Posts: 324
Short Conversation
According to DM at the last Hub Turn meeting. Our CURRENT NC told the company that there would be no talk of negotiating the WORK RULES required to fly the 777 at the Current Wide Body Pay Rates.
As stated before, the company can bring the aircraft online without a payrate negotiated... 30 day clock.. arbitration... etc...
But the WORK RULES that will allow the company to fly the 777 on the ULR routes are not in place. If our CURRENT NC holds the line, there should not be anything to worry about.
I have faith in FE and the CURRENT NC to do the right thing by the pilot group and to enforce the contract. It may help if everyone takes the 777 out of their standing bids... But if there aren't going to be any discussion on the work rules the company's hands will be tied.
They can fly MEM-EWR or MEM-ANC... but not MEM to China.
As stated before, the company can bring the aircraft online without a payrate negotiated... 30 day clock.. arbitration... etc...
But the WORK RULES that will allow the company to fly the 777 on the ULR routes are not in place. If our CURRENT NC holds the line, there should not be anything to worry about.
I have faith in FE and the CURRENT NC to do the right thing by the pilot group and to enforce the contract. It may help if everyone takes the 777 out of their standing bids... But if there aren't going to be any discussion on the work rules the company's hands will be tied.
They can fly MEM-EWR or MEM-ANC... but not MEM to China.
09-28-2008, 01:50 PM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,199
so, now that the company is openly refusing to discuss the issue - what do we have to lose by formally requesting the discussions and starting the 30 day clock ticking towards a System Board (arbitration)?
worst that could happen is that the arbitrator gives us current widebody rates....right?
best case, the arbitrator awards us something higher than current widebody rates.
seems like with the company immobile on the 777 being just another widebody - we have nowhere to go but up from that with an arbitrator.
what am I missing? why would we not press the issue at this point?
maybe we are, and the union just hasn't "informed us" about it yet....
worst that could happen is that the arbitrator gives us current widebody rates....right?
best case, the arbitrator awards us something higher than current widebody rates.
seems like with the company immobile on the 777 being just another widebody - we have nowhere to go but up from that with an arbitrator.
what am I missing? why would we not press the issue at this point?
maybe we are, and the union just hasn't "informed us" about it yet....
...and time is of the essence before we let our own members shoot us all in the foot by bidding/flying it under the current rates.
09-28-2008, 01:53 PM
#80
On Reserve
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: MD11
Posts: 14
The Company is not going to pay the bargained for A380 rates for the 777. And they are not going to negotiate because they feel that any arbitrator will cast the rubber vote for the Company. Here's why:
Suppose that the Company bought a mess of 747s instead of the 777. Same arguments on both sides. At the System Board the Company would say that we used to have 747s and we paid them the widebody pay rates. Why should we pay them the contract's A380 rates? I think the arbitrator would rule for the Company.
Now if an arbitrator would side with the Company on the 747 how do you think he would vote for the 777- a smaller aircraft?
Ladies and gentlemen, those A380 rates are history. During the last contract negotiations the A380 rates were a "piece of the pie" with calculated costs- X many millions of dollars. We did not get to eat that piece of the pie. Those millions need to be recovered during the next negotiations. We need to get our next "pie" and then add the old A380 pie piece.
Mmmmmmmmm, I'm hungry.
Suppose that the Company bought a mess of 747s instead of the 777. Same arguments on both sides. At the System Board the Company would say that we used to have 747s and we paid them the widebody pay rates. Why should we pay them the contract's A380 rates? I think the arbitrator would rule for the Company.
Now if an arbitrator would side with the Company on the 747 how do you think he would vote for the 777- a smaller aircraft?
Ladies and gentlemen, those A380 rates are history. During the last contract negotiations the A380 rates were a "piece of the pie" with calculated costs- X many millions of dollars. We did not get to eat that piece of the pie. Those millions need to be recovered during the next negotiations. We need to get our next "pie" and then add the old A380 pie piece.
Mmmmmmmmm, I'm hungry.
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