Striking Photo of N714CK Cockpit
08-10-2008, 05:00 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 829
Exactly, if someone is pointing to something it may highlight an item of interest. Same as if a measuring device (ruler, etc) is laid next to an item to show relative size, it may also highlight an item of interest.
This picture seems to just show the wreckage after the mishap. The company may want to limit photos, etc to limit bad PR - but there is nothing there that would hamper an NTSB investigation because people might spread rumors.
This picture seems to just show the wreckage after the mishap. The company may want to limit photos, etc to limit bad PR - but there is nothing there that would hamper an NTSB investigation because people might spread rumors.
08-11-2008, 03:59 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Retired
Posts: 3,717
Orion,
First, these are pictures, they are not findings of an investigation and are not privileged. Second, these were not posted by Runner, they were posted by someone on Airliners.net.
These pictures are no different than pictures taken by a newspaper or television statement. Facts are facts (weather at the time of the mishap, photos of the wreckage in place, etc) and FINDINGS are privileged. It isn't like someone posting "as of now, the investigators are thinking that the mishap was caused by....."
First, these are pictures, they are not findings of an investigation and are not privileged. Second, these were not posted by Runner, they were posted by someone on Airliners.net.
These pictures are no different than pictures taken by a newspaper or television statement. Facts are facts (weather at the time of the mishap, photos of the wreckage in place, etc) and FINDINGS are privileged. It isn't like someone posting "as of now, the investigators are thinking that the mishap was caused by....."
First, these photos, at least the link to these photos WAS posted by Runner, or are you saying that now we're not even responsible for the stuff we obviously do? Secondly, it's not the fact that these photos were taken, it's the fact that someone in our line of work should have known better than to post them at all. We as a group can't control what the news media reports or takes pictures of, but we, again, as a group, should be more sensitive to the whole issue of Monday morning quarterbacking an aircraft accident.
JJ
08-11-2008, 04:16 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,235
You mean like the Gossip colum's of the news papers and The National Inquirer?
Go attend a NTSB Crash Investigation course and tell them your theory of immediately publishing pictures and information of an investigation that they are trying to conduct.
If all this stuff gets/leaks out immediately, what is the point of the NTSB publishing their official findings? All the people that are interested in the first place have already made up their mind from a lot of the BS that gets posted on the internet by anonymous so-called experts!
Agreed, people want to know. But they will tend to believe and make up their mind by the first things they see and read. Especially on these boards. Just read through all the posts on these accidents. Some of it is pretty funny. But the reality of it, it does take away from the actual investigation. The other reality, it is not always as it seems. The investigations reveal a lot more than is posted on this site.
As mentioned before, this kind of thing can prevent others, such as Union's from being a party to another investigation. The NTSB does not like it when people can't keep sensitive information in check and will just deny any outside party access to an investigation. As a Union, that is something we don't want to have denied.
Go attend a NTSB Crash Investigation course and tell them your theory of immediately publishing pictures and information of an investigation that they are trying to conduct.
If all this stuff gets/leaks out immediately, what is the point of the NTSB publishing their official findings? All the people that are interested in the first place have already made up their mind from a lot of the BS that gets posted on the internet by anonymous so-called experts!
Agreed, people want to know. But they will tend to believe and make up their mind by the first things they see and read. Especially on these boards. Just read through all the posts on these accidents. Some of it is pretty funny. But the reality of it, it does take away from the actual investigation. The other reality, it is not always as it seems. The investigations reveal a lot more than is posted on this site.
As mentioned before, this kind of thing can prevent others, such as Union's from being a party to another investigation. The NTSB does not like it when people can't keep sensitive information in check and will just deny any outside party access to an investigation. As a Union, that is something we don't want to have denied.
08-11-2008, 05:02 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 829
Are you reading what you are writing? Where did you get that this is a leak? If this picture was taken by a first responder right after the extrication to show the circumstances fo the rescue, would that make it privileged? No, absolutely not, would the investigators be interested in the photos as evidence - certainly, but that doesn't make it privileged. No more than the METAR report becoming privileged becuase it is evidence. Same for if this photo was taken by someone else. Once the investigators get on scene, they get control of the wreckage - but, it takes them a while to get there and anyone could have taken these pictures befroe that.
Also, the investigators have no concern with rumor control. A bunch of pilots can sit and theorize all day every day about what happened and not jeopardize anyone's status in an investigation. It may or may not be appropriate, but it does not affect the investigation whatsoever. As far as I know, no one associated with the investigation has relaeased any privileged information.
That is what jeopardizes status - someone officially associated with an active investigation releasing privileged information without proper authorization. If that has happened, please explain it to me. Runner posted a link to an open source photo showing the wreckage of a mishap (neither findings nor privileged). What if the photo was of the ground scaring leading to the wreckage, would that be privileged in your mind also? How about the photos of the ground scars of the BA 777 mishap that made the rounds?
I have no idea who Runner is, but he did nothing out of line - maybe he upset a Kallita guy or two by reintroducing the topic, but that's their issue, not his. And JetJok, please explain to me how he (or anyone) is Monday morning quarterbacking this mishap - so far no one on this thread gave his opinion of how or why anything happened - one person posted a link to a photo of the wreckage, plain and simple.
Also, the investigators have no concern with rumor control. A bunch of pilots can sit and theorize all day every day about what happened and not jeopardize anyone's status in an investigation. It may or may not be appropriate, but it does not affect the investigation whatsoever. As far as I know, no one associated with the investigation has relaeased any privileged information.
That is what jeopardizes status - someone officially associated with an active investigation releasing privileged information without proper authorization. If that has happened, please explain it to me. Runner posted a link to an open source photo showing the wreckage of a mishap (neither findings nor privileged). What if the photo was of the ground scaring leading to the wreckage, would that be privileged in your mind also? How about the photos of the ground scars of the BA 777 mishap that made the rounds?
I have no idea who Runner is, but he did nothing out of line - maybe he upset a Kallita guy or two by reintroducing the topic, but that's their issue, not his. And JetJok, please explain to me how he (or anyone) is Monday morning quarterbacking this mishap - so far no one on this thread gave his opinion of how or why anything happened - one person posted a link to a photo of the wreckage, plain and simple.
Last edited by LivingInMEM; 08-11-2008 at 05:28 AM.
08-11-2008, 06:05 AM
#17
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 80
I was the first guy to spank Huck for the original link to the original photos. I also posted my appreciation when he edited his post by deleting the link.
At that time, the investigative teams had not even arrived on scene, and these photos were already being analyzed by the armchair experts.
A few of those photos were a little disturbing to those of us who know the guys who were on board. Not to discount the loss of those unfortunate souls on the ground, but now that the initial shock has subsided and the crewmember's condition is known and their survival no longer in question, I'm a little more relaxed about it.
We all want to know what happened. There is a natural curiosity in all of us. Hopefully we can learn something. I'm not advocating that we hide from post-accident photos and information, but it bothers me to see the rubber-necking mentality of the gawkers whose morbid curiosity is quenched by seeing the intimate and up-close views of a post-accident flight deck. That is a scene that I truly wish that none of us would ever have to see again.
That being said, I think the media is more than capable of sensationalizing these kinds of tragic events, and the information is usually readily available for those who want it. Speaking for myself, I would like to see a little more discretion used when re-posting and
perpetuating these kind of photos. I think the majority of us would agree.
Let the bashing begin . . .
At that time, the investigative teams had not even arrived on scene, and these photos were already being analyzed by the armchair experts.
A few of those photos were a little disturbing to those of us who know the guys who were on board. Not to discount the loss of those unfortunate souls on the ground, but now that the initial shock has subsided and the crewmember's condition is known and their survival no longer in question, I'm a little more relaxed about it.
We all want to know what happened. There is a natural curiosity in all of us. Hopefully we can learn something. I'm not advocating that we hide from post-accident photos and information, but it bothers me to see the rubber-necking mentality of the gawkers whose morbid curiosity is quenched by seeing the intimate and up-close views of a post-accident flight deck. That is a scene that I truly wish that none of us would ever have to see again.
That being said, I think the media is more than capable of sensationalizing these kinds of tragic events, and the information is usually readily available for those who want it. Speaking for myself, I would like to see a little more discretion used when re-posting and
perpetuating these kind of photos. I think the majority of us would agree.
Let the bashing begin . . .
08-11-2008, 06:53 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 829
Let me be the first to say, there is no black/white here - just a lot of gray. At least some are starting to post that it offends some people's discretion to see this photo posted, vs. the stretch of an argument that it was interfering with the investigative process or was against some policy or procedure.
I'll start with the loss of life issue - whenever there is a loss of life associated with an accident, then taste and discretion are what hopefully rule the day. This photo did not cross my line for several reasons: it did not show human remains (which, in my opinion, is disrespectful to the victims and the victims' families - but still not a violation of procedure), it did not show a location where human remains were once located, it did not show any privileged information, it does not attempt to lead anyone to any conclusions. It is a picture of a cockpit post-mishap.
For those that project the reason why people would want to see these photos, not project your predispositions on others.
In general, the opinion of the posters seems to be that the only reason to view the photos is of a morbid nature. As a former accident investigator who was involved in several investigations (including one with a fatality - and I protected those photos more than anyone else - to the point of remaining at the developer to maintain custody until they were finished developing - was pre-digital age), I think you are wrong.
- Some may look at the photo just to see what the wreckage of a cockpit will look like after a crash. We all stake our survival on the structural integrity of the cockpit during a mishap and a real world example can lead to additional peace of mind (and, yes, satisfy a curiosity). They don't crash test these aircraft like they do cars - it's all theoretical. It can actually be comforting to see photos like this or the BA 777 photos and know that the aircraft doesn't necessarily disintegrate in all accidents.
- Even friends and associates of the crew may want to see what the cockpit looked like to get a better idea of what their experience entailed and be amazed at their survival. A while back, a friend of mine was involved in an accident between his Corvette and a semi - and he was quick to show the devastation of the wreckage, using the photos of the car to graphically demonstrate how close his call was.
- First responders use these photos to get a better idea of what the situation may likely be after an actual accident, vs only training on a borrowed aircraft still on its wheels.
- Etc.
You may feel free to think that none of these are the actual intentions of anyone on the board, and that is your right (but, you'd probably be wrong). Not talking about this mishap will make it so it didn't happen. A picture of metal was posted that mentioned no names, no potential causes, showed no remains, made no inference to injuries/fatalities, and from the photo itself is not even identifiable to any particular mishap. If any of that crosses your line of decency, so be it, but don't lecture about this photo causing us to lose our status on any future investigations. And I thought the stereotypical pilot was a rational vs. emotional thinker.
For what it is worth, my airline shows me pictures of post-mishap wrekage every year during recurrent training. Maybe I should let them know that their morbid obsession is disturbing.
I'll start with the loss of life issue - whenever there is a loss of life associated with an accident, then taste and discretion are what hopefully rule the day. This photo did not cross my line for several reasons: it did not show human remains (which, in my opinion, is disrespectful to the victims and the victims' families - but still not a violation of procedure), it did not show a location where human remains were once located, it did not show any privileged information, it does not attempt to lead anyone to any conclusions. It is a picture of a cockpit post-mishap.
For those that project the reason why people would want to see these photos, not project your predispositions on others.
In general, the opinion of the posters seems to be that the only reason to view the photos is of a morbid nature. As a former accident investigator who was involved in several investigations (including one with a fatality - and I protected those photos more than anyone else - to the point of remaining at the developer to maintain custody until they were finished developing - was pre-digital age), I think you are wrong.
- Some may look at the photo just to see what the wreckage of a cockpit will look like after a crash. We all stake our survival on the structural integrity of the cockpit during a mishap and a real world example can lead to additional peace of mind (and, yes, satisfy a curiosity). They don't crash test these aircraft like they do cars - it's all theoretical. It can actually be comforting to see photos like this or the BA 777 photos and know that the aircraft doesn't necessarily disintegrate in all accidents.
- Even friends and associates of the crew may want to see what the cockpit looked like to get a better idea of what their experience entailed and be amazed at their survival. A while back, a friend of mine was involved in an accident between his Corvette and a semi - and he was quick to show the devastation of the wreckage, using the photos of the car to graphically demonstrate how close his call was.
- First responders use these photos to get a better idea of what the situation may likely be after an actual accident, vs only training on a borrowed aircraft still on its wheels.
- Etc.
You may feel free to think that none of these are the actual intentions of anyone on the board, and that is your right (but, you'd probably be wrong). Not talking about this mishap will make it so it didn't happen. A picture of metal was posted that mentioned no names, no potential causes, showed no remains, made no inference to injuries/fatalities, and from the photo itself is not even identifiable to any particular mishap. If any of that crosses your line of decency, so be it, but don't lecture about this photo causing us to lose our status on any future investigations. And I thought the stereotypical pilot was a rational vs. emotional thinker.
For what it is worth, my airline shows me pictures of post-mishap wrekage every year during recurrent training. Maybe I should let them know that their morbid obsession is disturbing.
Last edited by LivingInMEM; 08-11-2008 at 06:59 AM. Reason: typo
08-11-2008, 08:15 AM
#19
Old P-3 IFE
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: B744 FO
Posts: 290
Memphis
I think you have missed the whole point! Someone from within our ranks distributed those pictures early on and that pi$$ed off the NTSB. Then shortly after we had sensitive internal communications that were, again published without permission and again the NTSB was pi$$ed.
Just as with a recent military incident, there were pictures immediately posted, before the investigation could be started. The Naval Safety Center requested them to be taken down, so they could do their job.
My point is, if you are in position to be part of an accident investigation, don't ruin it by publishing/distributing sensitive information/pictures until told to do so. They will get out in due time. People need to be a little patient. As a qualified Accident Investigator, I don't want to lose my "party"status over something like this. Hopefully, this won't be an issue again.
Enough said......
I think you have missed the whole point! Someone from within our ranks distributed those pictures early on and that pi$$ed off the NTSB. Then shortly after we had sensitive internal communications that were, again published without permission and again the NTSB was pi$$ed.
Just as with a recent military incident, there were pictures immediately posted, before the investigation could be started. The Naval Safety Center requested them to be taken down, so they could do their job.
My point is, if you are in position to be part of an accident investigation, don't ruin it by publishing/distributing sensitive information/pictures until told to do so. They will get out in due time. People need to be a little patient. As a qualified Accident Investigator, I don't want to lose my "party"status over something like this. Hopefully, this won't be an issue again.
Enough said......
08-11-2008, 08:23 AM
#20
Old P-3 IFE
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: B744 FO
Posts: 290
On a lighter note, thanks for all the support of our fellow crewmembers. They are all hero's for their actions that day. They are back in the sates at home and in the hospital recovering. It is unfortunate there was lose of life that day and it is on their (crews) minds as well. It could have been very worse!
