Whistlin' Dan

In fairness to DHL, UPS IS setting some conditions for DHL pick-up that seem unreasonable.

I'm not aware of any Astar guys who want to see anybody lose their jobs. After all, the more pilots on the street, the less our own bargaining position is. Rather, think of what happened to Astar/ABX like you would an aircraft accident report. Ask yourself, "What can be learned from this? Does any part of how they did things apply to our operation? What would I do if I were faced with the same difficulties they were?" I think there are some things which apply very much to your working arrangement with UPS, and even more so to FedEx. Don't say "It can't happen here" because it can happen ANYWHERE, given the right circumstances.

Don't gloat, Ned. Many Astar guys have been there for 20 years or more. When they started at DHL in the mid-80's, UPS was the "unstable" one, as it was being operated by contractors. All were on short contracts and none were represented by unions. When UPS finally brought their operations in-house, DHL pilots were effectively locked-out of the hiring process (all were well-qualified, most had apps in at UPS, several got interviews, but only 3 got hired...all managers).

When you see comments made on this board about the shutdown (many of which I don't agree with), ask yourself how you would react if UPS were to start transferring flying back to Evergreen, Kalitta, or ATI?

Like I said, don't gloat, Ned. Schadenfreude has no place among true professionals.

767pilot

Why DHL? What I mean is, that same thing can and does happen today, like you pointed out in SA. It will go to whoever the lowest bidder is, more likely Yangtze Express

Ned Ryerson

I commented back in the quotes.

brownie

That's what i meant, I just used DHL as an example and a possible carrier since ups will have them as a closest allies to share our volume with. I hope i'm wrong but these guys been in business for 100 yrs and as u and i know it's all about the share holders and more profit and if they can do it with less than you, me and 1000 ipa members they wil not hesitate, again i hope i'm wrong but there is bad feeling brewing inside me on this deal.

B727DRVR

Wow Ned,

That's certainly the singly most pompous thing that I have read yet from an IPA guy on this forum. It is also pretty out of touch with reality.

The fact of our chosen carrer is that none of us make the right or wrong decision: We get lucky, or not. You think I'm wrong? Well who could have ever assumed that the great, grand old carriers that were the subject of America's international image, Pan Am and TWA, would be nothing but memories. Who knew that Braniff and Eastern would have crumbled like they did. And who knew that Southwest would become the powerhouse that it is today? No food service, stand in line, no TV or movie, but low price is the winner of business plans.. Whodathunkit?

I see that you are senior enough to be a UPS MD11 Captain. Congratulations on being a psychic and making "the right decision". I say this with no disrespect intended, but if you hold that kind of seniority there, then you got hired back when UPS WASN'T the highest, paying best job out there. Your position is similar to the NetJets guys: Now that they got their contract, they are the shiznit. But back ten years ago, NetJets and UPS pilots were leaving in droves (and escorted off the property by UPS LP) to "the majors". I know because I had UPS guys leaving my SDF crashpad on a regular basis, not because they got a line, but because they were leaving for other companies. Who could have known?

So for you to belittle the Astar and ABX guys for making "a bad decision to work for ....", well, it is condescending, insensitive, and rude. Everyone with half a brain and any knowledge about this industry knows that this business has become a crapshoot, and that if you are lucky enough to have gotten hired by a great place like UPS... Well, you were just that... Lucky!

No one knows the future, just as the pilots at CAL are shocked at how things turned around for them since BK in 1995; And how shocked the pilots of AA, DAL, NWA, and UAL are about their fates.

Congratulations on your good luck in getting the UPS job and your great decision to stay there even when things might have been better elsewhere. Remember that this situation could easily been reversed and I would be defending you and the UPS pilots for picketing in front of the DHL HQ!

"But for the grace of God, there go I..."

Most of your fellow IPA pilots have been supportive of their fellow Astar and ABX brethren, even considering that they are picketing your HQ (By the way, the same HQ (NOT IPA HQ!!) that you, and I, have picketed). May I suggest that if you are going to say something like this, post it on the Bar and Grill where the Astar and ABX guys don't have to have it rubbed in their faces.

For the huge majority of you great IPA guys out there not rubbing this in their faces, thanks for representing yourself and the IPA so well. In all these threads, I have only sought to defend a bunch of fellow pilots, just I will you if the situation ever arises.

OK, I'm ready, hit me

B727DRVR

P.S. - And I still haven't seen any posts from you guys about what the IPA, CAPA, and KY lobbyists, would do if this situation was REVERSED. I know exactly what they would be doing... The same thing only better because the IPA is the strongest pilot union out there, they have to be. If they weren't, they wouldn't be doing their job to stop or delay as long as possible that deal. Take Care, B727DRVR

B727DRVR

Like I said, don't gloat, Ned. Schadenfreude has no place among true professionals.
I admit that a few of my comments were out of line and I apologize.

OOPS... Hey Ned,

I hope that you have continued to read down this far and see that I apologize to you. It's just that it chapped my a33 when I read what you wrote. I really am glad that you are on at a great company that will probably always be around. You DID make a good decision. I hope that this rancor can be healed after the dust clears.

Thanks again for your mea culpa to Dan. That was a classy and professional thing to do.

In Unity,

B727DRVR
Oh, and I picketed at the SDF hub, not the HQ. I think that I still have some signs, buttons, and an IPA 100% hat. Did you hear that UPS LP?? LOL!

DC8DRIVER

Excellent words 727.

I just can't believe how some people interpret these posts. My intent was akin to handing over a jet to a new crew with the warning that "number one is running really hot, but maintenance has signed it off as being within limits". With that warning I'm not wishing for your demise; just exercising a little professionalism and common courtesy.

I've seen how DHL operates for the past thirteen years and I'm passing along a simple warning. DHL (probably like UPS) will walk all over any employee that they want to. They do not make common sense decisions. And they will do whatever it takes to lower their costs.

DHL owns, or contracts with at least 32 different airlines which are based in over 20 countries. The fleet of dedicated DHL aircraft is over 235 jets and they deliver to every country on the face of the earth. Deutsch Post has over 500,000 employees (not counting contract employees like me) and their annual sales are over 65 billion. I'm pretty sure those numbers beat UPS by a slim margin (ups annual sales about 50 billion).

I'm not boasting here. In case you haven't noticed, I (and 1,100 other pilots) currently HATE Deutsch Post and will never again recommend anybody ever ship anything on DHL.

I'm just saying that no matter how much UPS likes control; No matter how arrogant they are; UPS could easily enter into any number of agreements with DHL that will result in your packages moving on some of those other planes because one thing UPS does know is that they want to lower their costs. And they will be able to get away with it when they are in bed with DHL.

Driver

SaltyDog

How do we know this is an IPA pilot? Most Supervisor Captains are hired as Captains. Could be a flight supervisor. I'm suspicious. A flight supervisor can be this condescending to line pilots and those in distress. (Many are super folks, but you get the superior attitude types) If they are IPA, clearly a one percenter. If a supervisor, a ten percenter. <ng>

hvydriver

Good point Salty. One we should bear in mind.

B727DRVR

Sorry Salty,

I just mistakenly assumed UPS Captain = IPA member, but I understand about the management types. It's just that I had read a few too many posts that seemed a little cold and disrespectful, and that I typed faster than my brain. And that took a long time.

Anyway, all I expect and hope is that the UPS pilots simply put themselves in the shoes of those who are fighting the battle of their lives to keep their careers afloat and reflect that in their posts. And I think that Ned is in the 99% of you good guys. He was pi33ed when he posted, but later apologized: Definitely not a one percenter. So I apologized to him/her for getting a little hot and I hope he/she accepts my apology, respect. and admiration.

I hope that the rifts created can soon be repaired. We really are, as pilots, all in this together, and the fate of Astar and ABX can soon be our own. It's a crapshoot.

Good luck to us all, but especially the UPS, Astar, and ABX guys and really especially any of my IPA buds that I may Pi33 off defending the little guys. Take care, all.

In Unity,

B727DRVR