skypine27

Now that's funny.

I think we should offer pay concessions w/o the company even asking for them. Good to be proactive. Hey, I'm just happy to be here...

FDXLAG

Because publishing the answer would result in too many uncool dudes finding out.

Who are we trying to keep a secret from? It is either us or them, and since I must conclude the company knows the answer it must be us.

gypsy

[/quote]

I'm no expert, but I have been talking to the union lawyers because I'm in the middle of this mess. You guys are only quoting a small portion of B4 of the settlement and therefore not getting the whole picture.

The first sentence of B4 is "If a pilot’s current crew position was in a state of excess when the pilot was awarded/assigned the cancelled crew position or was in a state of excess when the new crew position award/assignment was cancelled, the pilot will be considered to still be in excess status with all applicable bidding rights and privileges."

All the cancelled awards are from 07-03 and 08-01. The only people in a state of excess on those bids were Subic guys. Therefore, only Subic guys with bids cancelled are referred to in the sentence in B4 "The pilot’s excess status, however, shall not be limited by the prohibition in Section 24.C.6.c. "

That all got sorted out before 08-02 closed. There shouldn't be any more captains added to the HKG list. The company can still excess there, so far they haven't. In an ironic twist, junior captains there who are sweating out an excess were told "don't worry, you won't be senior enough to hold an excess"!!!

mwbmd11

I changed my bid to HKG capt and had to check a box saying I will sign the training letter. Has this always been the case?

DLax85

........Yes

Albief15

I bid HKG because I was ready to go. I have said that repeatedly and would use a section 6 move. I am still ready to go.

Passover? Geez...who knows. I read the contract saying it is due some members in certain situations. However, I am not going to "help" anyone in the bean counter department figure out how to get around it by listing ways I think they might try. I'm sure there are several angles they may consider.

For pilots interested--read my last block letter. If you goon this up, end up on a training letter (nothing says the company can't put 100 captains in HKG if they desire then fly European SIBA with those guys...) you may find yourself whining about really having to do this. If you don't sign the FDA letter--you are frozen for two years. Not a big deal? It would be if the 777 bids open some vacancies around the system but you got cute and locked yourself into the 727 FO or SO spots for another 2 years....or until the next bid after that....which might be a while.

If you do get passover pay, you need to educate yourself on what the pay back triggers are--you do not want to mess up a subsequent bid and then pay that money back. Bottom line is if you put HKG on your standing bid, I'd be prepared to GO to HKG...if not on this bid then a subsequent one.

As far as the complaints about "secrets"...I try to lead by example. It wasn't a secret I didn't like the LOA, and it wasn't a secret I got involved because there were decisions made on that and other issues I disagreed with. But I didn't hide behind an anonymous name making wild accusations, and I got smarter on some issues and got very involved. In short--I put up and didn't just sit around stewing. If you get that, then pay attention to how I bid. I have publically discussed the reasons I bid HKG and have kept it on my standing bid, and I have aggressively sought out additional information from management, Price Waterhouse, and the HKG pilot web boards on more information. I have shared that info with many of you. I would ask you--besides showing up on the practice bid, fielding quesitons about HKG, tax equalization info, and passover potential gains and concerns every time I am in the hub, and writing a letter to my block reminding them to read the contract closely and bid accordingly what exactly would you like me to do? If I tell X guy to bid Anchorage it may knock guy Y back to a narrow body in MEM. Giving advice is very, very tricky, as I have NO idea how the final numbers will shake out. I'm along for the ride like the rest of you. Excess bids are a zero sum game--for every winner there is a loser. I am NOT going to start telling individuals in my block what they should or shouldn't bid. Is it better to be 30% on 727 FO spot or 80% on the A300 FO or 40% in ANC? These tradeoffs are decsions YOU have to make. I can't tell someone to bid HKG and expect a windfall as I have NO idea if they will get it or if they will end up on a training letter as HKG expands to 120 captains next spring. How upset will you be with me if your "scam" turns into a twice a month commute halfway across the globe? This is a call only you can make...

What I CAN tell you is what I did--and what I will continue to do. I bid HKG. But my bags are packed--and I am ready to face the music. If you ain't...then don't play. If you want to go...bring it.

And one more point: None other than Dave Webb explained in detail how passover triggers might work using some A300 FOs in HKG as an example. In a room with SRO, he talked about the very provisions in the contract discussed here and explained that if enough guys bid HKG some would go but some might luck into staying in MEM but securing passover. What else do you want him to do? Are you waiting for your block rep to call you at home and tell you how to bid?

Now--at the same time the hub meeting was going on--others were outside surfing the net, socializing, or doing whatever they felt was important at the time. I can only assume those folks "got it figured out", don't care, or are still fuming about past issues. (and I can't fix those...) I have answered about every email I've gotten the same day. I've returned about all my phone calls in less than a day. We have shown up at hub turn meetings (Vic, myself, and Dave Webb were there this week) and tried to answer face to face questions. The purple lanyard means "ask me!" when you see it and if I don't know I'll try to get you an answer.

But honestly...dammit guys...its YOUR contract. You need to be at least somewhat familiar with it. If parts confuse you (and they do me at times) then call ALPA legal or your reps and get the help you need. But there are times you have to accept some personal responsibility. Please don't expect us to tell each of you how to bid--we just can't because there are too many personal variables. I'm still agonizing over A300, MD11, or MD11 ANC. If I am that torn how can I possibly straighten out your life?

FDXLAG

So what did DW say in the meeting that can't be repeated in a letter to the troops?

As far as secrets; who told us the union had problems with the 1st excess bid? Who told us the union had problems with the current training letter? Occasionally this problems actually affect the membership and how we would bid. More information is better.

But the unions approach to answering contract questions is good practice for the Hong Kong people. Mr Price-waterhouse can you explain how this got on my tax return. Bam, he slams you with 80 pages of the tax code.

And as far as knowing your contract make sure you know what all those little grievance symbols mean too. Very important for complete knowledge of the contract. Just don't look for grievance 08-01.

Underdog

Except if you were a Subic guy who had been awarded let's say a DC-10 slot now you were considered a DC-10 excess, not Subic excess, even though you were still in Subic. Go figure.

It seems like folks are worried about the fact that you might actually have to go to HKG. Yes, the company can decide to send 400 Captains to HKG. They gonna call you on your bluff? I doubt it, but who cares? Okay, you really don't want to go...then don't sign the friggin letter. Guess what? You don't go...period! Two year freeze...yep. According to the F/O who already refused to sign, the two year freeze started from the date of his refusal. He leaves Subic at the end of the year. He will then have a year and four months remaining on his freeze. If you truely believe a two year freeze will mess up things, then as Albie says, don't do it.

Will folks be entitled to passover? Yep. Is the company gonna actually pay 500 guys passover pay? No way. You will see an excess out of HKG to minimize the number of folks getting it. At least the bottom 3-10 Captains will go. Voila...only 30 passover pay issues(I've pulled numbers from my derriere).

The folks who may get passover, may, in fact, have to reimburse that money some day. That's if they can eventually hold HKG Captain and refuse to do so. If they are lucky, then there will be a posting large enough to allow them a widebody Captain slot stateside, then they can go there instead, and not be required to repay the money. I guess they could even receive the Captains pay but live on the F/O money and invest the rest. When payback time comes, maybe they will have earned tons of interest, which they can pocket. Of course, that's making a whole lot of assumptions.

You can guess this thing to death. I'm sure we're in for a few more surprises before this is all over. If all this has got you confused, you can be thankful that you are part of the majority. If in doubt, rely on the mantra...."bid what you want to fly"

...."and that's all I have to say bout that."

skypine27

Underdog:

Excellent post, and good as well as accureate, info.

This pilot group could learn a thing or two by reading it.

gypsy

Underdog, you were not denied a HKG Capt spot because you were, let’s say, a Subic excess/DC10 excess guy, but because you didn’t have HKG Capt on your standing bid on 07-03 or 08-01. As you mentioned previously, when we were excessed out of Subic you were senior enough to hold, let’s say, DC10 Capt. If it’s what you wanted why would you have anything else on your standing bid, just as the number one person in any seat position need only put one line on his/her monthly bid. As you also mentioned, the settlement changed the CBA in para B3

Exercise of a pilot’s seniority under Section 24.E.4. shall be limited to the pilot’s standing bid for each posting specified in paragraph B.2. above, as applied to the primary and secondary vacancy awards for each such posting

The settlement changed other things as well, for example as browngirlsyum has pointed out, excessed/cancelled types have been allowed to create an excess at an FDA if it was in their standing bid and they were in an excess status when their award was cancelled (not many). Like you say yourself Underdog, most at FDX won’t even follow this conversation because it doesn’t affect them. I was originally posting to point out that some were taking one sentence of the settlement out of context. Just trying to keep the misinformation to a minimum for those who want to try to follow this train wreck.

Cheers