UPS Contract--A Year Later
04-13-2008, 08:09 PM
#111
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 757/767
Posts: 579
That may all be true, but at the end of the day wasn't the open time ban when the company announced furloughs after 911 a success? I thought the ban put such a strain on the company that they rescinded the furlough announcement as fast as they announced it. Was this not the case?
This event involved a round of displacements that moved all the "excess" pilots to the FE position, where they stayed after the ban for quite some time (more than a year), until UPS started announcing vacancies again.
UPS at that time also gave over-60 FE's the option to retire and receive the new contract's anticipated pension improvements (which were still being negotiated). Thus, a good number of over-60 FE's left.
That was also when we lost many, many pilots to the Gulf War, which had a tremendous effect on utilization.
And the company didn't furlough, and it was declared to be a result of the open time ban.
Last edited by Roberto; 04-14-2008 at 01:11 PM.
04-14-2008, 07:14 AM
#112
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: MD11 CPT
Posts: 1,077
Sideshow Bob,
I suspect you like a challenge, so if you can find where I said that, I'll change diapers for Freightpuppy while I'm here on my ONT layover <g>. Just bring that pup over to the Ayres before Monday night.
My memory, being that I'm on the cusp of senility, is not so good, but I can say with confidence I never said such a stupid thing. However, I may have said it would be fair for everyone who has been a captain for more than 10 years to contribute (I was one for 6 years).
I did say:
....I think discussions about greed are among the most fatuous, and are best left to politicians and demagogues.....
....Setting that aside, however, there are many good reasons for hanging around past 60, but regardless of the reason, the FE position is not a bad job. I characterize it as Sergeant's work at Colonel's pay.
But it is "just" a job, ........ (and I'll add now: a place to wait for better times, whether young or old)
That was not the case with the front seat, whether left or right. Even in the middle of the night, once up and awake, the job was enjoyable. The fact that the Captain's pay is twice that of the back is just a bonus.
I suspect you like a challenge, so if you can find where I said that, I'll change diapers for Freightpuppy while I'm here on my ONT layover <g>. Just bring that pup over to the Ayres before Monday night.
My memory, being that I'm on the cusp of senility, is not so good, but I can say with confidence I never said such a stupid thing. However, I may have said it would be fair for everyone who has been a captain for more than 10 years to contribute (I was one for 6 years).
I did say:
....I think discussions about greed are among the most fatuous, and are best left to politicians and demagogues.....
....Setting that aside, however, there are many good reasons for hanging around past 60, but regardless of the reason, the FE position is not a bad job. I characterize it as Sergeant's work at Colonel's pay.
But it is "just" a job, ........ (and I'll add now: a place to wait for better times, whether young or old)
That was not the case with the front seat, whether left or right. Even in the middle of the night, once up and awake, the job was enjoyable. The fact that the Captain's pay is twice that of the back is just a bonus.
I'm reaching out to a couple of people who (thanks to really cheap computer memory) archive years of posts for just such occasions, but in the meantime it is interesting how you now hedge your bets saying you might have suggested it a good idea for over ten year captains. It would have been more your style to say anyone who had been captain for a month longer than you. The fact that you now suggest you might have conceded the ten year mark speaks volumes. You really were pretty over the top during your last Selma march after all.
So what's your timetable for the next crusade? Will you wait right until you approach 65 or will you get started early? Just realize that you'll have to raise the bar above and beyond your last victim-fest rhetoric to get the desired effect.
04-14-2008, 07:41 AM
#113
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 757/767 FO for life
Posts: 63
"it's just not what I'm used to from a cultural standpoint vis a vis the union, contracts, and hourly caps"
Well, welcome to UPS/IPA. If it's a new culture for you, not much I can do about that. This is how it's been since 1990 and it's all I know. What was it like at your previous culture? If you'd like a culture change, be sure it get involved with the union and fix it all on the next contract. I'll be right there voting against you...
"I just don't like hearing guys talk about "needing the money"
I hope that's not the impression you got from me. I don't NEED the money, but cherry picking the good stuff is just to hard to say no to. The guys that NEED the money max out each pay period. I just grab the occasional stuff that's worth it to me. If it comes along. Great. If not, great. It ain't no thing....
"Especially when in the same breath they whine about stagnation"
You wouldn't hear that from me, though age 65 has caused me to slide a tad. I guess I could move up a tad if nobody picked up open time, but it's a contractural right, and it's not my place to say otherwise.
Well, welcome to UPS/IPA. If it's a new culture for you, not much I can do about that. This is how it's been since 1990 and it's all I know. What was it like at your previous culture? If you'd like a culture change, be sure it get involved with the union and fix it all on the next contract. I'll be right there voting against you...
"I just don't like hearing guys talk about "needing the money"
I hope that's not the impression you got from me. I don't NEED the money, but cherry picking the good stuff is just to hard to say no to. The guys that NEED the money max out each pay period. I just grab the occasional stuff that's worth it to me. If it comes along. Great. If not, great. It ain't no thing....
"Especially when in the same breath they whine about stagnation"
You wouldn't hear that from me, though age 65 has caused me to slide a tad. I guess I could move up a tad if nobody picked up open time, but it's a contractural right, and it's not my place to say otherwise.
You not "needing the money" re-enforces my point exactly. There really should be a lower hourly cap, but it'll never happen because there is a propensity of people who share your view......so, cherry pick away.
04-14-2008, 08:36 AM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 757/767
Posts: 579
.... how you now hedge your bets saying you might have suggested it a good idea for over ten year captains. It would have been more your style to say anyone who had been captain for a month longer than you. The fact that you now suggest you might have conceded the ten year mark speaks volumes....
Perhaps this medium is not sufficient to indicate when one speaks in jest, but the "ten-year captain" comment was made to demonstrate the greed thread as a reductio ad absurdum. Perhaps it would have been more clear to you if I had said "a month longer than me." Answering absurdity with absurdity, so to speak, to the idea of anyone providing "reparations" as a result of the age change.
04-14-2008, 08:48 AM
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: MD11 CPT
Posts: 1,077
Sideshow Bob,
Perhaps this medium is not sufficient to indicate when one speaks in jest, but the "ten-year captain" comment was made to demonstrate the greed thread as a reductio ad absurdum. Perhaps it would have been more clear to you if I had said "a month longer than me." Answering absurdity with absurdity, so to speak, to the idea of anyone providing "reparations" as a result of the age change.
Perhaps this medium is not sufficient to indicate when one speaks in jest, but the "ten-year captain" comment was made to demonstrate the greed thread as a reductio ad absurdum. Perhaps it would have been more clear to you if I had said "a month longer than me." Answering absurdity with absurdity, so to speak, to the idea of anyone providing "reparations" as a result of the age change.
04-14-2008, 09:07 AM
#117
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 757/767
Posts: 579
That's largely the point even in Latin. And in the end, absurdity pretty much sums up your whole series of tirades on the B & G likening YOUR greed and ego with real civil rights crusades. It cheapens the real human rights challenges past and present. So when will your age 70 march start...after enough guys hit 65 and get out of YOUR way...again? At least you're consistently absurd, so you've got that going for you, which is nice.
While you are checking the archives, please try to find a "tirade" or a likening to a civil rights crusade authored by me. I think the tirades you have seen have been from your side of the debate. The posts I read on the pro side were well reasoned, such as those by Klako and rjlavender. The tirades came from those who had nothing to rebut other than invective.
I visit the forum to receive and provide information. I tend not to respond to argumentum ad hominem. If I do, it is just for fun.
As to your so-called "age 70 march," I don't think that will happen in my lifetime. I became involved in age-65 when ICAO announced the change, back in March of 2006, which took effect in November of that year. It was clear to me that the age would change in the USA as a result of that.
The only change I see, probably in the next 5 years, is the elimination of the "one under 60" requirement internationally. I think that change will be welcome by all.
Last edited by Roberto; 04-14-2008 at 09:12 AM.
04-14-2008, 09:18 AM
#118
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: I was acquired, Not Hired
Posts: 1,784
A lot better than the other 6 places I worked at, three of which are no longer in business.
But look at the bright side, even know a lot of folks think this place is the pits, ya get to wear Brown...now who else gets to say that ???
Back to my book, "If I were a Battered Wife, I would complain about your Eggplant Parmigiana too !!"
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