UPS Contract--A Year Later
04-13-2008, 01:08 PM
#101
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 757/767 FO for life
Posts: 63
I'm still trying to figure out why I should make a personal sacrifice to not cherry pick the open time, for the landings (which I need) and for the extra cash, so that another guy can get hired at UPS. I understand your point of view but I'm not swayed by your argument.
Back in the old days Sutton would come out and say "Boys, we should all enjoy our time off this summer". I don't see that sort of strong signal in the memo's you mention.
Back in the old days Sutton would come out and say "Boys, we should all enjoy our time off this summer". I don't see that sort of strong signal in the memo's you mention.
Your inability to understand the dynamic of what's going on with our pilot group, and the union's manning dilemma with the company, etc. is stunning, but as I said earlier, people see what they want to.
We're not "back in the old days", you should probably endeavor to re-read those memo's I mentioned for the aforementioned "signal" you can't see.
As for not picking up OT, I have no problem with you doing it contractually, though your argument that you "need the landings" and the "extra cash" rings pretty hollow.
How long you been an airline guy? Nevermind, I'll go to your website and find out......
From there we see:
"............ I could have made captain in about the sixth year but decided to wait, and wait, and wait. Basically, seniority is everything in the airline business.................Time off and quality of life means a lot more to me than money, so I still haven't found the motivation to go to the captain seat yet. Maybe next year…..
I live as a single guy on the side of a mountain, just east of Spokane, WA. I own a Cessna 152 aerobat with a Garmin 430 GPS. One day, I’d like to learn aerobatics. I own a 1957 Piper Apache 160 with most of the Geronimo mods and an old taildragger. "
Nothing personal, but I find your arguments, and you, pretty weak.
Last edited by roadwarrior; 04-13-2008 at 01:28 PM.
04-13-2008, 02:02 PM
#102
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"Nothing personal, but I find your arguments, and you, pretty weak"
Sorry you feel that way...
One correction, though, it's not my website, it's a link to Jetcareers where I was asked to write a profile on how I got to the airlines. I put the link up so newbies could see how I did it.
Sorry you feel that way...
One correction, though, it's not my website, it's a link to Jetcareers where I was asked to write a profile on how I got to the airlines. I put the link up so newbies could see how I did it.
04-13-2008, 02:10 PM
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 757/767
Posts: 579
73,000 hours of opentime pick up / 10,569 = 6.9 hours of opentime per pay period per reserve
or about 1 more day of work per pay period per reserve
Last edited by Roberto; 04-13-2008 at 03:36 PM.
04-13-2008, 04:05 PM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 266
73,000 hours / 75 hours per pay period / 13 pay periods = 75 more pilots on the seniority list
B2P
04-13-2008, 04:23 PM
#105
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 757/767 FO for life
Posts: 63
My math:.....and I was a Biology major.....73,000 hrs /year being picked up, say we have an average line credit of 73 hours. That would mean about an extra 1,000 lines of flying a year. Divide by 13 Pay periods per year, and you get 77 more pilots on the property.....not an insignificant number, especially when you consider that very few lines are 73 hours or more, and the additional reserve bodies to cover that many extra lines. The union's guesstimate was higher.....almost 150, though I don't know how they came up with that.
Even so, that's during contract negotiations. I'm afraid to know what the number of OT hours are being flown now......I would hazard a guess that it's much more.
In the end, there are those that do, and those that don't pick up OT. For me, it's just not what I'm used to from a cultural standpoint vis a vis the union, contracts, and hourly caps. When I got here and saw what the culture was, I was pretty shocked.....it was like a different planet. Regardless, I'm able to see past it and accept it for what it is. I just don't like hearing guys talk about "needing the money", etc. Especially when in the same breath they whine about stagnation, or the fact that it takes 10 years to upgrade at this company.....and then tell me about all their toys.
At least have the nads to say "I WANT the money" and don't care about anyone else to get it.
To his credit, at least that's what de727 admits to.
04-13-2008, 04:26 PM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 757/767
Posts: 579
Besides the ease of an average reserve working another day per pay period, the options that UPS has to cover open time are powerful. During the 2003 "ban," there was a system-wide increase of 74 reserve and standby lines while regular and VTO lines were reduced by 126. Many of the regular lines that remained were built with increased credit. (There were fewer total lines because we were reducing the 727, 747 and DC8 fleets by displacement, and many were in training. We were adding A300's and MD11's, but not to the extent of the reductions.)
In rare instances, when there is a bottleneck in one fleet or seat, contingency may have to make some equipment substitutions, the schedulers have to work harder, and the line builders have to get a lot more creative. That is what UPS pays them to do, and we have seen that they have gotten better at making the necessary adjustments each time we have tested them.
Also, there are many management pilots for problems that can't be solved by the reserves. There are also some IPA pilots who do not join a boycott. Many others, through carry-in, creative bidding and trip trading, can and will fly all the time they can handle. Likewise with bidding vacation and training on days off. This can be confirmed by cross checking the bid books and open time with the Flight Information link on CMS. (If you weren't here for the "ban" when UPS shut down the Flight Information link, it was shut down to deny this tracking ability.)
The reserve line holders end up flying trips that otherwise would have been someone else's voluntary overtime and increase in pay. UPS saves millions which should have been in our pockets. Moreover, even though the reserve line holders bear the brunt of the burden, most other line holders are displaced from their normal bidding pattern while reserve goes to the most junior. Only the very senior in their seats go on unaffected.
Advocating that one not pick up open time is like suggesting that one cut off their nose to spite their face.
Last edited by Roberto; 04-13-2008 at 06:34 PM.
04-13-2008, 04:53 PM
#107
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 266
The math is good, but the logic is not <g>.
Besides the ease of an average reserve working another day per pay period, the options that UPS has to cover open time are powerful. During the 2003 "ban," there was a system-wide increase of 74 reserve and standby lines while regular and VTO lines were reduced by 126. Many of the regular lines that remained were built with increased credit.
In rare instances, when there is a bottleneck in one fleet or seat, contingency may have to make some equipment substitutions, the schedulers have to work harder, and the line builders have to get a lot more creative. That is what UPS pays them to do, and we have seen that they have gotten better at making the necessary adjustments each time we have tested them.
Also, there are many management pilots for problems that can't be solved by the reserves. There are also some IPA pilots who do not join a boycott. Many others, through carry-in, creative bidding and trip trading, can and will fly all the time they can handle. Likewise with bidding vacation and training on days off. This can be confirmed by cross checking the bid books and open time with the Flight Information link on CMS. (If you weren't here for the "ban" when UPS shut down the Flight Information link, it was shut down to deny this tracking ability.)
The reserve line holders end up flying trips that otherwise would have been someone else's voluntary overtime and increase in pay. UPS saves millions which should have been in our pockets. Moreover, even though the reserve line holders bear the brunt of the burden, most other line holders are displaced from their normal bidding pattern while reserve goes to the most junior. Only the very senior in their seats go on unaffected.
Advocating that one not pick up open time is like suggesting that one cut off their nose to spite their face.
Besides the ease of an average reserve working another day per pay period, the options that UPS has to cover open time are powerful. During the 2003 "ban," there was a system-wide increase of 74 reserve and standby lines while regular and VTO lines were reduced by 126. Many of the regular lines that remained were built with increased credit.
In rare instances, when there is a bottleneck in one fleet or seat, contingency may have to make some equipment substitutions, the schedulers have to work harder, and the line builders have to get a lot more creative. That is what UPS pays them to do, and we have seen that they have gotten better at making the necessary adjustments each time we have tested them.
Also, there are many management pilots for problems that can't be solved by the reserves. There are also some IPA pilots who do not join a boycott. Many others, through carry-in, creative bidding and trip trading, can and will fly all the time they can handle. Likewise with bidding vacation and training on days off. This can be confirmed by cross checking the bid books and open time with the Flight Information link on CMS. (If you weren't here for the "ban" when UPS shut down the Flight Information link, it was shut down to deny this tracking ability.)
The reserve line holders end up flying trips that otherwise would have been someone else's voluntary overtime and increase in pay. UPS saves millions which should have been in our pockets. Moreover, even though the reserve line holders bear the brunt of the burden, most other line holders are displaced from their normal bidding pattern while reserve goes to the most junior. Only the very senior in their seats go on unaffected.
Advocating that one not pick up open time is like suggesting that one cut off their nose to spite their face.
B2P
04-13-2008, 06:58 PM
#109
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"it's just not what I'm used to from a cultural standpoint vis a vis the union, contracts, and hourly caps"
Well, welcome to UPS/IPA. If it's a new culture for you, not much I can do about that. This is how it's been since 1990 and it's all I know. What was it like at your previous culture? If you'd like a culture change, be sure it get involved with the union and fix it all on the next contract. I'll be right there voting against you...
"I just don't like hearing guys talk about "needing the money"
I hope that's not the impression you got from me. I don't NEED the money, but cherry picking the good stuff is just to hard to say no to. The guys that NEED the money max out each pay period. I just grab the occasional stuff that's worth it to me. If it comes along. Great. If not, great. It ain't no thing....
"Especially when in the same breath they whine about stagnation"
You wouldn't hear that from me, though age 65 has caused me to slide a tad. I guess I could move up a tad if nobody picked up open time, but it's a contractural right, and it's not my place to say otherwise.
Well, welcome to UPS/IPA. If it's a new culture for you, not much I can do about that. This is how it's been since 1990 and it's all I know. What was it like at your previous culture? If you'd like a culture change, be sure it get involved with the union and fix it all on the next contract. I'll be right there voting against you...
"I just don't like hearing guys talk about "needing the money"
I hope that's not the impression you got from me. I don't NEED the money, but cherry picking the good stuff is just to hard to say no to. The guys that NEED the money max out each pay period. I just grab the occasional stuff that's worth it to me. If it comes along. Great. If not, great. It ain't no thing....
"Especially when in the same breath they whine about stagnation"
You wouldn't hear that from me, though age 65 has caused me to slide a tad. I guess I could move up a tad if nobody picked up open time, but it's a contractural right, and it's not my place to say otherwise.
04-13-2008, 07:09 PM
#110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 295
The math is good, but the logic is not <g>.
Besides the ease of an average reserve working another day per pay period, the options that UPS has to cover open time are powerful. During the 2003 "ban," there was a system-wide increase of 74 reserve and standby lines while regular and VTO lines were reduced by 126. Many of the regular lines that remained were built with increased credit. (There were fewer total lines because we were reducing the 727, 747 and DC8 fleets by displacement, and many were in training. We were adding A300's and MD11's, but not to the extent of the reductions.)
In rare instances, when there is a bottleneck in one fleet or seat, contingency may have to make some equipment substitutions, the schedulers have to work harder, and the line builders have to get a lot more creative. That is what UPS pays them to do, and we have seen that they have gotten better at making the necessary adjustments each time we have tested them.
Also, there are many management pilots for problems that can't be solved by the reserves. There are also some IPA pilots who do not join a boycott. Many others, through carry-in, creative bidding and trip trading, can and will fly all the time they can handle. Likewise with bidding vacation and training on days off. This can be confirmed by cross checking the bid books and open time with the Flight Information link on CMS. (If you weren't here for the "ban" when UPS shut down the Flight Information link, it was shut down to deny this tracking ability.)
The reserve line holders end up flying trips that otherwise would have been someone else's voluntary overtime and increase in pay. UPS saves millions which should have been in our pockets. Moreover, even though the reserve line holders bear the brunt of the burden, most other line holders are displaced from their normal bidding pattern while reserve goes to the most junior. Only the very senior in their seats go on unaffected.
Besides the ease of an average reserve working another day per pay period, the options that UPS has to cover open time are powerful. During the 2003 "ban," there was a system-wide increase of 74 reserve and standby lines while regular and VTO lines were reduced by 126. Many of the regular lines that remained were built with increased credit. (There were fewer total lines because we were reducing the 727, 747 and DC8 fleets by displacement, and many were in training. We were adding A300's and MD11's, but not to the extent of the reductions.)
In rare instances, when there is a bottleneck in one fleet or seat, contingency may have to make some equipment substitutions, the schedulers have to work harder, and the line builders have to get a lot more creative. That is what UPS pays them to do, and we have seen that they have gotten better at making the necessary adjustments each time we have tested them.
Also, there are many management pilots for problems that can't be solved by the reserves. There are also some IPA pilots who do not join a boycott. Many others, through carry-in, creative bidding and trip trading, can and will fly all the time they can handle. Likewise with bidding vacation and training on days off. This can be confirmed by cross checking the bid books and open time with the Flight Information link on CMS. (If you weren't here for the "ban" when UPS shut down the Flight Information link, it was shut down to deny this tracking ability.)
The reserve line holders end up flying trips that otherwise would have been someone else's voluntary overtime and increase in pay. UPS saves millions which should have been in our pockets. Moreover, even though the reserve line holders bear the brunt of the burden, most other line holders are displaced from their normal bidding pattern while reserve goes to the most junior. Only the very senior in their seats go on unaffected.
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