Swedish Blender

Then how about putting them in the right seat so they can mentor and share their experience. Or is it about money?

fdx727pilot

Just out of curiousity, exactly how many pilots at Fedex do you think fought to get the rule changed? Not someone who just had an opinion, but someone who contributed money, lobbied a congressman, joined APAAD, or in some way actually fought for the change. It seems like Bohica, you, and others are painting with a very broad brush.

IMHO, very few of our pilots actually did anything, one way or another to affect the change. We are a way too apethetic, self-absorbed bunch. I didn't see any junior (or young pilot, as nowadays, they're not necessarily the same) pilot lobbying groups spring up to fight APAAD. Just lots of knashing of teeth, whining, and veiled (and not so veiled) threats against over 60 guys on the internet, after the fact. Likewise, I doubt many older pilots were fighting for the change.

bluejuice

Send a PM to George aka Foxhunter. I'm sure he'd be glad to pass around the credit of who helped in the crusade.

As for the younger guys, I'm taking a wag here, but I'm assuming there are a myriad of reasons why you didn't see younger guys lobbying against the APAAD.
1. Lack of funds in comparison
2. Younger families, especially young kids.
3. Lack of guidance on any of the process.
4. Lack of Washington connections.
5. Timing parameters (hire date, time with company, etc).

These are just a few I can name. But considering the fact I made 28k my first year here, there wasn't much spare change to go around to lobby for something that my union said they were against.

Bohica

Did you see Armstrong walk on the moon? Do you think he did?

I didn't (except on TV) but I'm pretty sure he did.

I doubt too many of the old guys sending money to APAAD and spending their off time up in DC were going around shouting it to the masses in the AOC.

You are probably right that there weren't that many, but I'm sure there were some.

The most aggravating thing about the entire debacle is that these guys refuse to even consider the fact that they have gained at the expense of those junior to them. They also fail to demonstrate even the slightest amount of humility or good sportsmanship about the entire affair.

Sure they have been attacked, but mostly because of the way they have ridiculed those who were junior, younger, or happened to disagree that they weren't entitled to sit in the left seat until they died.

If they want respect they have to earn it, and the easiest way would be for them to at least admit that they just reaped a windfall at the expense of those still waiting for their chance to upgrade. Being a bit more gracious with their gains might go a ways toward reducing the amount of ill will.

Bohica

727: At least enough to convince Dave Webb and the rest of the MEC to disregard the desires of 70% of the crew force. I don't think it was a small number, no. Did it matter, maybe not, but I think it did.

In fact, I think that without ALPAs flip flop this bill wouldn't have been written and passed for several more years, if ever. I know you, and most of the other proponents of the change disagree, and that is fine. I am convinced, however, that without ALPA getting behind this bill it wouldn't have passed. I do not believe our MEC's version of events either.

Jetjok

As my good friend, John McEnroe, said on more than one occasion: YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!

Your rant is not about "that these guys refuse to even consider the fact that they have gained at the expense of those junior to them." Because they have considered it.

Nor is it about that "They also fail to demonstrate even the slightest amount of humility or good sportsmanship about the entire affair." Because many of us are either non-vocal about the issue, or do and have demonstrated both humility and good-sportsmanship, ongoingly.

It's not about "Sure they have been attacked, but mostly because of the way they have ridiculed those who were junior, younger, or happened to disagree that they weren't entitled to sit in the left seat until they died." Because as I see it, (and I know you won't agree with this or anything else I've written, for that matter), very few of the old guys have done any public ridiculing of you younger guys. And in the case of Foxhunter, who I again say, is a good friend of mine, if you read the very vast majority of his posts, he's only reporting facts. It's rare that he goes on the attack. In fact, he attacks much less frequently that I do. I'll have to talk to him about that.

As for your paragraph on respect, well, all I can say is that I think you've got it a little bassackwards. Someone whose been here for 20 or 25 years does not, in my opinion, "have to earn your respect." Perhaps it should be the other way around. Perhaps you need to earn their respect, by doing your job in a professional manner, understanding CRM, becoming a valuable resource that the Captain can use, etc, etc, not going around threatening all the time.

If, instead of posting your drivel here, you were to actually have the chutzpa to ask one of the old guys who has benefited by this rule change if he realizes that this gain comes at a cost to you, I'm sure you'd get an answer that would at least make you understand that he does realize what's happened.

As for "Being a bit more gracious with their gains might go a ways toward reducing the amount of ill will.", what did you have in mind? Are you asking that these guys, each month, write you a check, or are you suggesting that they buy not only your beer, but every meal you eat on layover? What is it that you want, or a better question might be: How gracious is gracious enough to go toward "reducing the amount of ill will", of which you speak?

No. Your rant is about the fact that there has been a law change, one that effects you in a negative manner, and that nobody had the courtesy to come and ask for your personal permission. As well, this rule change has produced some winners and (unfortunately) some losers, and to make matters worse, you're one of the losers (in this matter).

Bohica

Maybe you should read some of the posts from the pro-change crowd with some clear vision lenses and then tell us again if you think they have held the high moral ground during this debate. I don't think so.

We do agree on at least one thing, I definitely lost in this matter. Thank you for at least admitting that.

Packer Backer

You misspelled that last word. It's impotent.

Bohica

.............................

bluejuice

No, my definition of a loser is someone who is over 60, recuperating from a heart attack (who is supposedly in fanatastic health), and continually spends time on an internet message board chastising and berating other junior crewmembers. Don't know when it happened, but I'm sure you can tell me when someone ordained you as God.

For someone who recently cheated death, shame on you.