UPS & FedEx Upgrades will be atleast 7 more years!
12-17-2007, 07:33 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: I was acquired, Not Hired
Posts: 1,784
Slug,
The "80" number of S/O F/Es you mentioned in your post above, are they over age 60 as of today ? In addition, how many F/E S/Os are near enough to age 60 that they may not have the opportunity to return to a pilot seat.
I ask this Slug, because I thought I read preliminary legislation that suggests if you are age 60 and 1 minute at the time of enactment then you are retired.
On the other hand if you are age 59 and minutes away from your 60th birthday then you can continue to age 65.
My point is, I have not seen any retroactivity to this bill. Please correct me if I'm wrong..thanks in advance.
FF
The "80" number of S/O F/Es you mentioned in your post above, are they over age 60 as of today ? In addition, how many F/E S/Os are near enough to age 60 that they may not have the opportunity to return to a pilot seat.
I ask this Slug, because I thought I read preliminary legislation that suggests if you are age 60 and 1 minute at the time of enactment then you are retired.
On the other hand if you are age 59 and minutes away from your 60th birthday then you can continue to age 65.
My point is, I have not seen any retroactivity to this bill. Please correct me if I'm wrong..thanks in advance.
FF
12-17-2007, 07:38 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
You need to do your homework.
To paraphrase, the language says that if you are not an active crewmember and past age 60 on the date of enactment...You're done.
More accurately: ...`(1) NONRETROACTIVITY- No person who has attained 60 years of age before the date of enactment of this section may serve as a pilot for an air carrier engaged in covered operations unless--
`(A) such person is in the employment of that air carrier in such operations on such date of enactment as a required flight deck crew member; or...
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/.../~c110CiiauR::
Sad, but true.
To paraphrase, the language says that if you are not an active crewmember and past age 60 on the date of enactment...You're done.
More accurately: ...`(1) NONRETROACTIVITY- No person who has attained 60 years of age before the date of enactment of this section may serve as a pilot for an air carrier engaged in covered operations unless--
`(A) such person is in the employment of that air carrier in such operations on such date of enactment as a required flight deck crew member; or...
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/.../~c110CiiauR::
Sad, but true.
12-17-2007, 08:02 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: I was acquired, Not Hired
Posts: 1,784
Busboy,
Are we in agreement that there is no retroactivity to this bill, if you are already age 60 and 1 minute at enactment, then you are retired.
But also, (I know bad grammar) if you are age 60 and 1 minute you can become a new hire at another carrier. Just thinking out loud, I wonder if this would prompt lump sum buyouts. For example if you are 59 1/2, you could collect on your IRA, get offered a lump sum by your airline and then go to work for another carrier for almost 5 years....any thoughts ???
FF
Are we in agreement that there is no retroactivity to this bill, if you are already age 60 and 1 minute at enactment, then you are retired.
But also, (I know bad grammar) if you are age 60 and 1 minute you can become a new hire at another carrier. Just thinking out loud, I wonder if this would prompt lump sum buyouts. For example if you are 59 1/2, you could collect on your IRA, get offered a lump sum by your airline and then go to work for another carrier for almost 5 years....any thoughts ???
FF
Last edited by FliFast; 12-17-2007 at 10:02 PM.
12-17-2007, 08:08 AM
#24
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: B-777 Captain
Posts: 1,395
"(1) NONRETROACTIVITY- No person who has attained 60 years of age before the date of enactment of this section may serve as a pilot for an air carrier engaged in covered operations unless--
`(A) such person is in the employment of that air carrier in such operations on such date of enactment as a required flight deck crew member; or...
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/.../~c110CiiauR:: "
If one was not holding a medical certificate on December 13th due to a medical injury and they are past their 60th birthday, then one cannot be considered a required flightdeck cremember.
FAR 61.3
c) Medical certificate. (1) Except as provided for in paragraph (c)(2) of this section, a person may not act as pilot in command or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of an aircraft, under a certificate issued to that person under this part, unless that person has a current and appropriate medical certificate that has been issued under part 67 of this chapter, or other documentation acceptable to the Administrator, which is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft
`(A) such person is in the employment of that air carrier in such operations on such date of enactment as a required flight deck crew member; or...
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/.../~c110CiiauR:: "
If one was not holding a medical certificate on December 13th due to a medical injury and they are past their 60th birthday, then one cannot be considered a required flightdeck cremember.
FAR 61.3
c) Medical certificate. (1) Except as provided for in paragraph (c)(2) of this section, a person may not act as pilot in command or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of an aircraft, under a certificate issued to that person under this part, unless that person has a current and appropriate medical certificate that has been issued under part 67 of this chapter, or other documentation acceptable to the Administrator, which is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft
12-17-2007, 08:09 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
There is no retroactivity if you are age 60+ and have retired. If you are age 60+ and still employed as a "required flight deck crew member"(S/O). You now have the right to get back to the front seat, with no loss of seniority. How you're going to get back will be determined by your CBA language. Or, lack thereof.
And yes, if you're retired...You may be rehired at the bottom of anyone's seniority list.
And yes, if you're retired...You may be rehired at the bottom of anyone's seniority list.
12-17-2007, 08:11 AM
#26
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
However, if one was not holding a medical certificate on December 13th due to a medical injury and they are past their 60th birthday, then one cannot be considered a required flightdeck cremember.
FAR 61.3
c) Medical certificate. (1) Except as provided for in paragraph (c)(2) of this section, a person may not act as pilot in command or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of an aircraft, under a certificate issued to that person under this part, unless that person has a current and appropriate medical certificate that has been issued under part 67 of this chapter, or other documentation acceptable to the Administrator, which is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft
FAR 61.3
c) Medical certificate. (1) Except as provided for in paragraph (c)(2) of this section, a person may not act as pilot in command or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of an aircraft, under a certificate issued to that person under this part, unless that person has a current and appropriate medical certificate that has been issued under part 67 of this chapter, or other documentation acceptable to the Administrator, which is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft
12-17-2007, 08:33 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: Retired
Posts: 980
"(1) NONRETROACTIVITY- No person who has attained 60 years of age before the date of enactment of this section may serve as a pilot for an air carrier engaged in covered operations unless--
`(A) such person is in the employment of that air carrier in such operations on such date of enactment as a required flight deck crew member; or...
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/.../~c110CiiauR:: "
If one was not holding a medical certificate on December 13th due to a medical injury and they are past their 60th birthday, then one cannot be considered a required flightdeck cremember.
FAR 61.3
c) Medical certificate. (1) Except as provided for in paragraph (c)(2) of this section, a person may not act as pilot in command or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of an aircraft, under a certificate issued to that person under this part, unless that person has a current and appropriate medical certificate that has been issued under part 67 of this chapter, or other documentation acceptable to the Administrator, which is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft
`(A) such person is in the employment of that air carrier in such operations on such date of enactment as a required flight deck crew member; or...
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/.../~c110CiiauR:: "
If one was not holding a medical certificate on December 13th due to a medical injury and they are past their 60th birthday, then one cannot be considered a required flightdeck cremember.
FAR 61.3
c) Medical certificate. (1) Except as provided for in paragraph (c)(2) of this section, a person may not act as pilot in command or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of an aircraft, under a certificate issued to that person under this part, unless that person has a current and appropriate medical certificate that has been issued under part 67 of this chapter, or other documentation acceptable to the Administrator, which is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft
UNLESS--
`(A) such person is in the employment of that air carrier in such operations on such date of enactment as a required flight deck crew member;
If a FedEx crewmember loses his/her medical they continue to remain an employee for a very long time.
When a pilot is sick or injured he/she does not lose the FAA medical. The FAA Medical is valid for 24-36 months. I suggest you take your medical out and read the reverse side.
12-17-2007, 08:47 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: A300/310 Capt
Posts: 1,642
It's a pretty big assumption that every pilot that is currently over 60 in the back seat will want to move back to the front, or will be allowed to move. I am sure that both companies will draw a line somewhere around 63 years old, and then just pay wb (or capts pay at UPS) pay to the others without re-training them. It is also a stretch to say that every pilot from now on will automatically keep flying until they are 65. There are a lot of pilots, who have planned their career's to be financially able to retire at age 60, and will do so. It is far too early in the game to make brash statements about the damage to upgrades. Obviously, it will affect upgrade times, but until all of the cards have been dealt with respect to any changes to retirement percentages (or penalties) it is all just a shot in the dark. Merry Xmas to all, and to all a good night!
12-17-2007, 09:03 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: Retired
Posts: 980
It's a pretty big assumption that every pilot that is currently over 60 in the back seat will want to move back to the front, or will be allowed to move. I am sure that both companies will draw a line somewhere around 63 years old, and then just pay wb (or capts pay at UPS) pay to the others without re-training them. It is also a stretch to say that every pilot from now on will automatically keep flying until they are 65. There are a lot of pilots, who have planned their career's to be financially able to retire at age 60, and will do so. It is far too early in the game to make brash statements about the damage to upgrades. Obviously, it will affect upgrade times, but until all of the cards have been dealt with respect to any changes to retirement percentages (or penalties) it is all just a shot in the dark. Merry Xmas to all, and to all a good night!
It is also a stretch to say that every pilot that continues past age 60 is doing so because he cannot afford to retire. My guess that percentage is very, very, low. Most like the job and enjoy working for FedEx.
12-17-2007, 09:11 AM
#30
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 44
It's a pretty big assumption that every pilot that is currently over 60 in the back seat will want to move back to the front, or will be allowed to move. I am sure that both companies will draw a line somewhere around 63 years old, and then just pay wb (or capts pay at UPS) pay to the others without re-training them. It is also a stretch to say that every pilot from now on will automatically keep flying until they are 65. There are a lot of pilots, who have planned their career's to be financially able to retire at age 60, and will do so. It is far too early in the game to make brash statements about the damage to upgrades. Obviously, it will affect upgrade times, but until all of the cards have been dealt with respect to any changes to retirement percentages (or penalties) it is all just a shot in the dark. Merry Xmas to all, and to all a good night!
Correct, not every pilot in the back seat will be able to move back to Captain. We have over 200 pilots in the back seat and 80 is the number that someone calculated that would still be able to move back into the seat using the age of 63 as the cut off. If UPS lets them all move back into the front seat it is a different story.
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