New idea for our next Contract.
12-15-2007, 07:47 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,199
It would be not be unprecedented --- because the new precedent is that "long standing precedent and rules change". Deal with it.
12-15-2007, 09:54 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Captain
Posts: 101
Yes, lets screw those wide body captains. Let's see I am 47, 2 kids(one in college and one 3yrs out, yes doing the 529 deal), been here 18yrs, sat on the 27 panel from 1990-1994 because FedEx had stopped hiring. Yeah, we are the guys, those wide body captains who are screwing you. Look I understand you had expectations, but that's just what they are expectations. When I got hired it was 6 yrs to 27 captain, well everyone told me that when I got hired so it became my expectation, they just forgot to tell me this was only true as long as the company kept hiring. Well, they stopped hiring and I plumbed, not my dream job for sure. This is kind of the same case, I know it doesn't make it any easier to take, but it is what it is. What we need to do is take all of this age based health care and retirement multipliers stuff out of the next contract and get the contract back to years of service and senority. We have a lot to fix in the next contract and you may want to cut my pay right now but I guarantee that when you become a wide body captain you'll want 5% a year because you get no longivity increases after 15 yrs. Let us take a collective deep breath, and come back with constructive ideas, fair and not vengeful, looking long term unlike some others that we know. Peace.
12-16-2007, 03:37 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: FDX Airbus F/O
Posts: 152
Look I understand you had expectations, but that's just what they are expectations. When I got hired it was 6 yrs to 27 captain, well everyone told me that when I got hired so it became my expectation, they just forgot to tell me this was only true as long as the company kept hiring
And why did they keep hiring? Retirements, medicals and expansion... Now one of those 3 has been moved to the right... Expectations... Sure..
12-16-2007, 03:58 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: MD11
Posts: 227
FamilyATM, (i Like the name by the way)
I am not screwing anyone. I never suggested a pay cut or even now pay raise for anyone. Just a modification of the ratio between fo and ca pay. It sounded like a liberal whine: its a pay cut if you get a 3% raise instead of a 10% raise.
I have 2 stints on the panel and a furlough under my belt, and now 5 more years
to wait until an upgrade (excluding HK). My suggestion had no intention of screwing anyone. Just easing the pain for the upgrade impaired. TM
I am not screwing anyone. I never suggested a pay cut or even now pay raise for anyone. Just a modification of the ratio between fo and ca pay. It sounded like a liberal whine: its a pay cut if you get a 3% raise instead of a 10% raise.
I have 2 stints on the panel and a furlough under my belt, and now 5 more years
to wait until an upgrade (excluding HK). My suggestion had no intention of screwing anyone. Just easing the pain for the upgrade impaired. TM
12-16-2007, 07:19 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Captain
Posts: 101
Tractor, I understand where you are coming from and that you don't want to take money away from me. I am just hoping that people will think outside the box and think long term and QOL. I had the "expectation" of retiring at 57. I still have that expectation. The question is what do I do to make it happen. You and others had the "expectation" of upgrading. It appears that those "expectations" just suffered a 3-5 year stay. How do we fix that? Throwing money at it is not going to make it better in the long run working the schedules that we now are. How about things like this:
1. Get rid of vacation buy back. We complain about how hard the trips are, yet many,many crewmembers sell back 40% every year. More captains use vacation, more open trips, more captains needed.
2. Cap and bank system. End this addiction of BLG/RLG inflation. This would create more lines needing more crews.
3. FO FLEXES in the school house. I am not saying that they don't do a good job, they do. But limiting it to SO for the backseat and captains for the front end would create the need for more captains.
4. Keep the CBA retirement age at 60. Better yet let us come up with a better early out program like Lax's(age+yos=80). This would encourage people to retire and create movement.
5. Limit passover pay to 3yrs. After 3yrs you need to upgrade or loose the money. I think that would create movement for the bottm 3rd of the list.
I am not saying that these are all great ideas. But they are ideas to help create upgrades.
1. Get rid of vacation buy back. We complain about how hard the trips are, yet many,many crewmembers sell back 40% every year. More captains use vacation, more open trips, more captains needed.
2. Cap and bank system. End this addiction of BLG/RLG inflation. This would create more lines needing more crews.
3. FO FLEXES in the school house. I am not saying that they don't do a good job, they do. But limiting it to SO for the backseat and captains for the front end would create the need for more captains.
4. Keep the CBA retirement age at 60. Better yet let us come up with a better early out program like Lax's(age+yos=80). This would encourage people to retire and create movement.
5. Limit passover pay to 3yrs. After 3yrs you need to upgrade or loose the money. I think that would create movement for the bottm 3rd of the list.
I am not saying that these are all great ideas. But they are ideas to help create upgrades.
12-16-2007, 07:35 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: unskilled laborer
Posts: 353
Tractor, I understand where you are coming from and that you don't want to take money away from me. I am just hoping that people will think outside the box and think long term and QOL. I had the "expectation" of retiring at 57. I still have that expectation. The question is what do I do to make it happen. You and others had the "expectation" of upgrading. It appears that those "expectations" just suffered a 3-5 year stay. How do we fix that? Throwing money at it is not going to make it better in the long run working the schedules that we now are. How about things like this:
1. Get rid of vacation buy back. We complain about how hard the trips are, yet many,many crewmembers sell back 40% every year. More captains use vacation, more open trips, more captains needed.
2. Cap and bank system. End this addiction of BLG/RLG inflation. This would create more lines needing more crews.
3. FO FLEXES in the school house. I am not saying that they don't do a good job, they do. But limiting it to SO for the backseat and captains for the front end would create the need for more captains.
4. Keep the CBA retirement age at 60. Better yet let us come up with a better early out program like Lax's(age+yos=80). This would encourage people to retire and create movement.
5. Limit passover pay to 3yrs. After 3yrs you need to upgrade or loose the money. I think that would create movement for the bottm 3rd of the list.
I am not saying that these are all great ideas. But they are ideas to help create upgrades.
1. Get rid of vacation buy back. We complain about how hard the trips are, yet many,many crewmembers sell back 40% every year. More captains use vacation, more open trips, more captains needed.
2. Cap and bank system. End this addiction of BLG/RLG inflation. This would create more lines needing more crews.
3. FO FLEXES in the school house. I am not saying that they don't do a good job, they do. But limiting it to SO for the backseat and captains for the front end would create the need for more captains.
4. Keep the CBA retirement age at 60. Better yet let us come up with a better early out program like Lax's(age+yos=80). This would encourage people to retire and create movement.
5. Limit passover pay to 3yrs. After 3yrs you need to upgrade or loose the money. I think that would create movement for the bottm 3rd of the list.
I am not saying that these are all great ideas. But they are ideas to help create upgrades.
12-16-2007, 07:49 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: unskilled laborer
Posts: 353
Yes, lets screw those wide body captains. Let's see I am 47, 2 kids(one in college and one 3yrs out, yes doing the 529 deal), been here 18yrs, sat on the 27 panel from 1990-1994 because FedEx had stopped hiring. Yeah, we are the guys, those wide body captains who are screwing you. Look I understand you had expectations, but that's just what they are expectations. When I got hired it was 6 yrs to 27 captain, well everyone told me that when I got hired so it became my expectation, they just forgot to tell me this was only true as long as the company kept hiring. Well, they stopped hiring and I plumbed, not my dream job for sure. This is kind of the same case, I know it doesn't make it any easier to take, but it is what it is. What we need to do is take all of this age based health care and retirement multipliers stuff out of the next contract and get the contract back to years of service and senority. We have a lot to fix in the next contract and you may want to cut my pay right now but I guarantee that when you become a wide body captain you'll want 5% a year because you get no longivity increases after 15 yrs. Let us take a collective deep breath, and come back with constructive ideas, fair and not vengeful, looking long term unlike some others that we know. Peace.
I don't believe that we can make up for this financially folks. We need to have more accountable leadership. We need more responsible rules and procedures, and we need a membership that demands to be informed. We need to use that information to shape our own futures.
12-16-2007, 07:53 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: unskilled laborer
Posts: 353
And what about the group of guys stuck as FO's right now that finally make captain about the time the next contract is signed (5yrs?)? how about everyone who didn't get 25,000 for retiree health care last contract gets it this time?
12-16-2007, 08:09 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,068
Not hoping for that. My point was similar to FamilyATM's, 5 years is this business isn't 5 years. Sometimes things work out and you get what would seem like 5 years of progression in 2-3, other times it's the opposite. This time was looking like the latter before age 65 changed. U.S. economy down, some softening in the international sector, domestic seat positions/growth lost to foreign domiciles, 3 man to 2 man planes at less than a 1-1 rate at that, and some overstaffing(FX). People's progression expectations were already being strained, now they really will be. This will alter how long people stay in the right seat, likely far beyond what they intended which is why changing the FO rates a bit would help.
12-16-2007, 08:15 AM
#20
Freightmama!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Why does it "have" to go down? It does not. Companies have us brainwashed into thinking that.....it is not true.
I would like to spend most of my career as a captain but there are no guarantees. I would rather have the "don't make jack forever and then 'if' you make it to the top, you make a crapload" scale be evened out where it's more even over your career than top heavy.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
