UPS New Hire class
12-10-2007, 10:11 AM
#111
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
You know, the one I thought he was replying to?
Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
To my surprise (and disbelief) I just heard ONT might see some shrinking, anyone else heard that rumor? It doesn't make sense to me and personally I don't believe it but wasn’t there some kind of 'big fish' meeting in ONT in the last week or so? I hope this rumor is not true, anyone?
FWIW, I was in ONT Friday morning and ran in to Rick B and Pete L. John was in the office and Matt was out flying.
...
Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
To my surprise (and disbelief) I just heard ONT might see some shrinking, anyone else heard that rumor? It doesn't make sense to me and personally I don't believe it but wasn’t there some kind of 'big fish' meeting in ONT in the last week or so? I hope this rumor is not true, anyone?
FWIW, I was in ONT Friday morning and ran in to Rick B and Pete L. John was in the office and Matt was out flying.
...
12-10-2007, 10:37 PM
#112
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 75
You can't be serious. Take a look at the pay scales at airlines other than UPS/FDX - most of them require a captain upgrade to surpass what the military pays. My unit has guys from just about every airline out there begging for orders - all the way up to 15 years of legacy seniority.
12-11-2007, 06:07 PM
#113
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: The IPA EB speaks for me
Posts: 529
Ya'll ever here the term "praise in public and counsel in private?" (Yeah, I know, this isn't that private, but it's at least inside a single forum and I hope it helps w/ some perspective and context)....
Got a bubba abusing the system? For sure? You have all the facts, right? OK- get them to back off or find a mutual bud/bro/sis they'll listen to. Don't pass anecdotes here in psuedo-public, por favor.
Seems in a few days we'll all earn 5 more years on the back end to figure out what it means to be an organized group from top to bottom on the front end.
I'd suggest you not moan about a few bucks or trips today serving one's country in one's capacity when you just about earned a 5 year sentence if you had a dream of retiring at 60 or whatever you want to call what we'll have by that age. I'm pretty sure if you study dollars and hours and still want to moan about this hijack of a thread your ship has left the station or your train has sailed. YMMV.
Gonna be a fun bunch to fly and hang with to at least age 65 with- or a bunch of infighting ninnies? Your pick! Don't think it won't start pushing past 65 the day after 65 gets signed!
Discuss...
Got a bubba abusing the system? For sure? You have all the facts, right? OK- get them to back off or find a mutual bud/bro/sis they'll listen to. Don't pass anecdotes here in psuedo-public, por favor.
Seems in a few days we'll all earn 5 more years on the back end to figure out what it means to be an organized group from top to bottom on the front end.
I'd suggest you not moan about a few bucks or trips today serving one's country in one's capacity when you just about earned a 5 year sentence if you had a dream of retiring at 60 or whatever you want to call what we'll have by that age. I'm pretty sure if you study dollars and hours and still want to moan about this hijack of a thread your ship has left the station or your train has sailed. YMMV.
Gonna be a fun bunch to fly and hang with to at least age 65 with- or a bunch of infighting ninnies? Your pick! Don't think it won't start pushing past 65 the day after 65 gets signed!
Discuss...
Last edited by MoosePileit; 12-11-2007 at 07:29 PM. Reason: Rant Mode Off
12-11-2007, 06:14 PM
#114
Tri-tanic operator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Doggie
Posts: 2,382
12-12-2007, 01:02 PM
#115
Legend in my own Mind....
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: Hey Cappy, where are we?
Posts: 114
Hey Capt,
The good news is that most of the new SDF MD F/Os will be going to ANC. So J/A pay will be abundant out of SDF. In ANC on the MD it is the norm.
I'm not "in the know", but a general observation on my part. The training pipeline is stopped up like a toilet. Unfortunately, there is no plunger to get the "stuff" moving. The MD does not have a short program for those coming onto the property already rated in the airplane. The FAA won't allow it. This would save thousands of duck-ducks and save many weeks in the classroom.
Two of the guys in my class were already rated and had thousands of hours in the MD11. I'm not even going to go into the boredom and shenadigens they partook in to pass the four(4) months of required training.
Get a short program for the MD11 for those who are rated and have time in type. UPS has the resources to do this.
Capt, I agree with you in principle that UPS needs to hire steadily. However, in my opinion, by continuing to hire without having "the plunger" you will be bringing people onto the payroll just to send them home for weeks if not months of vacation.
In retrospect, the hiring pipeline should have been steady for the last few years vis-a-vis the expansion plans in ANC and the transition of the IRO position from Capt to F/O. However, there is nothing we can do about that now. But what we can do something about is the stopped up toilet in the training pipeline.
I started class in Feb 07 and was not released to the line until mid-June...almost 4 months and this was prior to the simulator taking a dump.
At a former airline I was hired Jan 10 and was released to the line Feb 14th. It can be done. The FAA and the insurance company can dictate requirements for new hires to be eligible for a short course. There are plenty of MD11 / 747-400 pilots that are typed, current and qualified on the market.
One other angle, which ties into another thread, is that the management instructors on the MD11 are just getting beat like dogs. Not to bring up the other thread, but the point is, just think what their resignations will do to the pipeline if they remain under this "work till you drop" environment.
Cheers Capt,
FF
The good news is that most of the new SDF MD F/Os will be going to ANC. So J/A pay will be abundant out of SDF. In ANC on the MD it is the norm.
I'm not "in the know", but a general observation on my part. The training pipeline is stopped up like a toilet. Unfortunately, there is no plunger to get the "stuff" moving. The MD does not have a short program for those coming onto the property already rated in the airplane. The FAA won't allow it. This would save thousands of duck-ducks and save many weeks in the classroom.
Two of the guys in my class were already rated and had thousands of hours in the MD11. I'm not even going to go into the boredom and shenadigens they partook in to pass the four(4) months of required training.
Get a short program for the MD11 for those who are rated and have time in type. UPS has the resources to do this.
Capt, I agree with you in principle that UPS needs to hire steadily. However, in my opinion, by continuing to hire without having "the plunger" you will be bringing people onto the payroll just to send them home for weeks if not months of vacation.
In retrospect, the hiring pipeline should have been steady for the last few years vis-a-vis the expansion plans in ANC and the transition of the IRO position from Capt to F/O. However, there is nothing we can do about that now. But what we can do something about is the stopped up toilet in the training pipeline.
I started class in Feb 07 and was not released to the line until mid-June...almost 4 months and this was prior to the simulator taking a dump.
At a former airline I was hired Jan 10 and was released to the line Feb 14th. It can be done. The FAA and the insurance company can dictate requirements for new hires to be eligible for a short course. There are plenty of MD11 / 747-400 pilots that are typed, current and qualified on the market.
One other angle, which ties into another thread, is that the management instructors on the MD11 are just getting beat like dogs. Not to bring up the other thread, but the point is, just think what their resignations will do to the pipeline if they remain under this "work till you drop" environment.
Cheers Capt,
FF
12-12-2007, 01:13 PM
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 511
You can't be serious. Take a look at the pay scales at airlines other than UPS/FDX - most of them require a captain upgrade to surpass what the military pays. My unit has guys from just about every airline out there begging for orders - all the way up to 15 years of legacy seniority.
Yep...Moose I am serious. But I was only talking of the company I work for. They couldn't be begging too hard. I can point you to tons of open jobs right now in Iraq and Afghanistan. Let me know if you are interested and I can get you in contact with the right people.
Last edited by Rocco; 12-12-2007 at 01:24 PM.
12-12-2007, 04:01 PM
#117
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 75
I agree, your company certainly fits in that category. There are, however, not too many FO's who can attain $100/hr in the second year at most airlines. I figure that's roughly what it takes to replace the non-ACIP military salary for most of us slacker O4's (not inluding pension, tax benefits, health care, etc). My statement of "most" airlines require a capt upgrade may be a little bit of a stretch, but in reality how much seniority/longevity is required to hold 777 FO at many legacies?
As for the desert deployment - let's not get ahead of ourselves! I don't know of anyone gunning for a year of that, but many of our guys are looking to work for the squadron full time.
As for the desert deployment - let's not get ahead of ourselves! I don't know of anyone gunning for a year of that, but many of our guys are looking to work for the squadron full time.
12-12-2007, 04:34 PM
#118
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 511
I agree, your company certainly fits in that category. There are, however, not too many FO's who can attain $100/hr in the second year at most airlines. I figure that's roughly what it takes to replace the non-ACIP military salary for most of us slacker O4's (not inluding pension, tax benefits, health care, etc). My statement of "most" airlines require a capt upgrade may be a little bit of a stretch, but in reality how much seniority/longevity is required to hold 777 FO at many legacies?
As for the desert deployment - let's not get ahead of ourselves! I don't know of anyone gunning for a year of that, but many of our guys are looking to work for the squadron full time.
As for the desert deployment - let's not get ahead of ourselves! I don't know of anyone gunning for a year of that, but many of our guys are looking to work for the squadron full time.
The company is getting burned by people doing this. It is hurting some that are trying to get a job here.
The sarcasm light was dimly lit when I mentioned the desert stuff. There are tons of jobs that are open. I dont know anyone that wants them. Myself included!
12-12-2007, 05:32 PM
#119
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Spartan
Posts: 3,652
I hear you. The frustration I have with this issue is that I had a bud that got rejected here because he was flying his A$$ off in his unit to make extra money. It came up in the interview somehow and he was asked how he expects to make it on the crappy salary you get the first year......He had all the checks in the block....but there were more than a few questions about this. I guess everything else went pretty good. Deal breaker I guess.
The company is getting burned by people doing this. It is hurting some that are trying to get a job here.
The sarcasm light was dimly lit when I mentioned the desert stuff. There are tons of jobs that are open. I dont know anyone that wants them. Myself included!
The company is getting burned by people doing this. It is hurting some that are trying to get a job here.
The sarcasm light was dimly lit when I mentioned the desert stuff. There are tons of jobs that are open. I dont know anyone that wants them. Myself included!
12-12-2007, 07:31 PM
#120
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
Floater,
Are you serious? Was it a surprise to you when you got the job? Did you not know what the pay was when you applied? I am with you on the pay....NO ONE wants to start off working for first year pay at almost any airline. That is just the way it is. I saved for years and no vacation for my family this year. It sucks, but it is what it is. Dropping "Voluntary" military leave so you dont have to deal with first year pay is abusing the system. It hurts everyone. USERRA was established to protect service members from being treated unfairly.
I try my best to not drop any trips and bid according to my reserve obligation. Sometimes I get lucky and dont have to drop anything but sometimes I don't. This is a hot topic and people look at it differently. It is open to interpretation, but I still think if you drop mil leave after you are finished consolidating you are abusing a system. Hurting not just other reservists but the people you fly the line with. Ask yourself how many people drop mil leave the day they start 2nd year pay? Probably none......because it is a pay cut. If an interviewer "could" ask you "do you plan on dropping mil leave during probation?" that you would get the job? I would say NO....but they can't ask that(nor should they be able to).
Are you serious? Was it a surprise to you when you got the job? Did you not know what the pay was when you applied? I am with you on the pay....NO ONE wants to start off working for first year pay at almost any airline. That is just the way it is. I saved for years and no vacation for my family this year. It sucks, but it is what it is. Dropping "Voluntary" military leave so you dont have to deal with first year pay is abusing the system. It hurts everyone. USERRA was established to protect service members from being treated unfairly.
I try my best to not drop any trips and bid according to my reserve obligation. Sometimes I get lucky and dont have to drop anything but sometimes I don't. This is a hot topic and people look at it differently. It is open to interpretation, but I still think if you drop mil leave after you are finished consolidating you are abusing a system. Hurting not just other reservists but the people you fly the line with. Ask yourself how many people drop mil leave the day they start 2nd year pay? Probably none......because it is a pay cut. If an interviewer "could" ask you "do you plan on dropping mil leave during probation?" that you would get the job? I would say NO....but they can't ask that(nor should they be able to).
Lots of folks drop MIL in year 2. I drop in year 13 and I lose coin with UPS, so be it. I have military obligations and cannot control all elements of my military requirements.
Most flyers are putting in more than 8-10+ days per month in the unit. When I had my change of command, we desired 12 days average per month per aviator. So, if you have been out of the squadron for 4-5 months in initial training with an airline and consolidating, (and units accept this, but other's have to pick up the mission). This absence means you are at a deficit in the unit of at least 16-20 IDT's, Plus AFTP's (as much as 30-40+) and several days ADT/AT etc. The squadron needs you to be qualified as well, aircraft availability, etc. etc, means some need to go pay the piper at the unit immediately after consolidation. It is not abuse. It may be more cost effective for the taxpayer to prevent an escalating requalifying cost to the unit or maintain readiness rates. UPS is beginning to understand that GWOT is a huge burden on the all volunteer force and that even if the member would lose money going to drill, most would still dissappear.
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