DLax85

What's the difference between the company chosing to fill "secondary vacancies" and the company putting out a "clean-up bid"?

Am I correct in assuming that when the company choses to fill "secondary vacancies" there is no opportunity to change your bid, because it is a part of a specific posting; while a "clean-up" bid is actually a separate posting, where you would have an opportunity to change your standing bid...??

It appears this difference is important if you are interested in a widebody FO slot to MEM.

2cylinderdriver

I guess the bottom line is always, Bid what you want to fly.

You are correct that secondary vacancies are additional positions filled on a specific bid. When there are new vacancy postings, there will be secondary vacancies created by the pilot who bid a new slot (If a MD11FO bids 757CA, it creates a MD11 FO slot and so on). The Company then looks at the holes created in the bid and decides what secondary slots need to be filled to balance their manning levels.

Clean up bids are just that, Completely new and separate postings in which you can enter a new bid.

pilot141

Yes, but it's not really the company "choosing" to fill secondary vacancies - it just happens. When you add aircraft (and seats) you create a cascade effect. At my previous airline the standard urban legend was that one 777 Captain retirement created 11 training cycles. Of course we ran a vacancy bid every month there, but the principle is the same.

The bid will most likely result in MORE seats available than what is posted.

Let's take LAX as an example using some fake numbers.

Say that the bid has 10 MD-11 LAX Captains and 10 MD-11 LAX FOs posted. When they run the bid, 5 MD-11 LAX FOs bid and hold LAX Captain. There were already 10 openings for LAX FOs, but now there are 5 more because 5 FOs moved over to the left seat. So instead of the top 10 people with 11LF on their bid, the top 15 get it.

And now those extra 5 who left, say, the 727 FO seat create 5 previously non-existent 727 FO slots that someone could get awarded.

If after all the carnage there are still seats unfilled or certain training pipelines are about to run dry the company can run a cleanup bid with a very narrow focus. But even these create secondary vacancies - look at the "mini" Bus bid this summer.


As people have said before - bid what you want, because you just might get it.

fdx727pilot

Actually, yes it is the company "choosing not to fill secondary vacancies." No one disputes that the secondaries are created by people moving to other seats. Whether the company moves someone into the vacancy created is a whole nuther deal. Say we use your example and 5 727 FOs are moving upward. With the 727 currently having 159 lines and 93 reserve lines for FOs, I'm guessing the company would just operate with 5 less 72 FOs. I'm guessing the same will hold true for secondaries in any seat on the Boeing or DC10. Other jets with growing fleets will probably fill secondary vacancies. It's either unfilled secondaries or displacement bids for the 72 and 10, as both fleets are shrinking, and in the 10's case going away. IMHO anyway.

pilot141

I think we're saying the same thing - it's up to the company whether or not to fill the secondary vacancies, not whether they get created (notice that I said the 727 FO slots "could" get awarded).

If the secondaries get created in a seat that is overmanned then no one new will fill them - if they get created in a seat that needs bodies then people will fill them. If not, we have a cleanup bid.

For DLax85 I think the standard advice stands - bid what you want. You never know what can happen, and you never know when the next bid will be. Heck, weren't we supposed to have a bid every 6 months after the first MOAB?

DLax85

OK, given all that's stated below --- what's the consensus opinion that MD-11 and Airbus FO "secondary vacancies" in Memphis will be filled on this bid, IF they are created by the movement of those FOs?

Will MD-11 FO "secondary vacancies" be more plentiful because Subic FOs will be coming back to Memphis?

...or will that be matched by MD-11 FOs in ANC (especially Purple Nuggets hired last summer) trying to get back to the Lower 48?

In the Spring '06 MOAB were there two practice bids or just one?

koz2000

there is just one practice bid, that's contractual. But the practice bid is usually about worthless, I've been hundreds of numbers from holding a seat on a practice bid and then awarded it on the actual. It happens everytime. Bid what you want to fly and at a percentage that you can live with for a while.

2cylinderdriver

SFS guys are under an Excess posting and can go anywhere they want, where someone junior resides. IMHO this will create LESS secondary vacancies because even if, for example, 15 MEM MD11 FO's bid up and 25 SFS guys Bid MEM MD11 FO then they will probably fill NO secondary vacancies, the SFS guys will in effect have filled them all.

I would bet Purple Nuggets have ZERO Chance to move into MEM MD11 FO on this bid. The trump card is who bids the FDA's, if it is all junior 727 guys then the Company will be happy because it will automatically take care of the overmanning in the 727 without an excess bid. If it is a bunch of junior wide body guys then they will post more secondaries in those slots. I have been wrong before, just once.., but it will be very interesting to see how it pans out. Practice bids are a complete waste of time !

Good Luck.