Pilotpip

Why not, their first year pay rivals CAL on the level of idiotic.

Which is worse? $8k for a type, or 6 months without insurance and $21k less in the first year looking at the minimum guarantees posted on here?

That being said, I was pretty envious walking out of the bar in SDF a couple nights ago watching those brown tails landing.

767pilot

So just what do you think first year pay should be? What is it at your joint for flying a jiffy jet? From what I see, our new hires get insurance like the rest of us.

Pilotpip

That's great, I don't agree with first year pay anywhere really, including where I'm at. I think it should be more on-par with what you make second year and so on. You already have the credentials to be there, why should you have to suffer for the first year?

The comment wasn't directed at UPS, more the comments regarding SWA. The pay for type is no better than crappy first year pay. The system sucks in general. We've already paid enough.

767pilot

I won't totally disagree, but I will say that I am sick of hearing the whinning about our first year pay as if it is something unique. This isn't politically correct to say, but I and a couple of hundred or more UPS captains left the negotiations a little lighter in the pocket than we would have {not more than a cost of living raise and a cut in pension} in the name of making up for that pay over the next few years.

Suck up your less than ideal 34 bucks an hour (jan 1) and lodging, uniform, and full time perdiem until you are released to the line. Instead concentrate on the 112 you'll make the next year (which rises to almost 150 an hour for second year pay. If you can't make it on that, I hear Delta, USAir, and United are hiring.

As for you walking out of the bar with envy as the brown fleet flew over, don't worry, chances are that the pilots were looking down on that bar with the same feeling <G>

turkeydrvr

767pilot,
I'm a little tired too of hearing capt's say how much of a cut they took to make F/O pay right. If you can't make it on 250K+ per year than your right, I hear Delta is hiring. I think our first year pay is just shameful. I guess it has been too long for you to remember the pain of that. Our avg newhire age is something like 40, we are not hiring kids just out of school here. See you on the line.
TD

767pilot

Pain? We all pay our dues in different ways. DId I say I was having trouble making ends meet? I'm not thank you very much. New hire pay here was the most money I had ever made in my life, and that was after 10 years in the work place and a major airline! Knowing that there were a few years of hazing through first year pay still ahead, I never got myself into a position where I wouldn't be able to pay the bills no matter what it was. Nobody should starve to death on a package worth around 40k for a year with big bucks on the horizon.

turkeydrvr

Did I say that people were starving to death? No, I just said it was shameful and I stand by that. I am glad it was more than you ever made, but I guarantee what you got as new hire pay was more in terms of survivability, than it is today. It is what it is and I hope we take care of it next contract.

767pilot

what would you like it to be and how would you justify that to those sitting across from you at the table? I'm not saying that I am in love with where it is, more is always better and I would have a tough time answering that question myself. On the other hand, I am not the one calling or a paradigm shift on what the industry pays first year people.

turkeydrvr

I don't disagree that it is/was difficult to argue across the negotiating table for it. I don't even find it to be a "no" vote issue at all. What do I think it should be? Hard to say. Parity with FedEx, perhaps? It isn't what I think, it is what we negotiate. I hardly think it is a paradigm shift, I do think it requires some creative framework. For instance, what do we pay a college intern? What is the average salary for those new-hires coming to work for UPS? What does 26 dollars in 1988 translate into 2008? I'm sure if I were more sober I could think of more, but that is a wag off the top of my head.

SaltyDog

turkeydrvr,
You may be just trying to stir the pot, but either you are, or you clearly know nothing of the negotiation history with UPS. Yes, as a junior CPT, I made the 26K to start, then I sat as a plumber after year one, so many of the CPT's sat on the low end of the pay scale for alot longer than anyone hired after 2004. My year 2 was 56k, as an F/O it was 63K. Now 2nd year pay is nearly double that in this contract. Yes, the CPT's shared the pot to move up F/O pay.
Not an issue of how much we make, what you will make, but realize objectively, the pot was limited, and the right thing to do was raise F/O pay where we could, in year 2 and up. Make it over a 100k. Cripes, UPS flatly refuses to work with us on year one. I guess I got here just early enough (1996) to see the sacrifices the 88-90 folks got for us. I looked at the history and saw how brutal UPS was towards them. Maybe we have it to easy now? but when the company goes after heads to make examples of, it is the CPT's they target. I remember the teamsters strike of 97 that we honored and our own bitter negotiations, where yes, they tried in vain to get first year pay raised to Fedex, etc. The CPT's always covered F/O's and S/O's. They were great, courageous examples. I try to emulate them.