UPS talks resume - Part II
11-27-2005, 07:37 PM
#1
APC co-founder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: B777
Posts: 5,853
UPS talks resume - Part II
http://forums.airlinepilotcentral.co...ead.php?t=1472
This thread is the continuation of "UPS talks resume" (aka. part one). The link above will provide background on part one. The split is only an administrative function to reduce the load on the database from a high traffic thread.
This thread is the continuation of "UPS talks resume" (aka. part one). The link above will provide background on part one. The split is only an administrative function to reduce the load on the database from a high traffic thread.
11-28-2005, 09:34 AM
#2
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2005
Posts: 88
NoKoolAid
Originally Posted by HSLD
http://forums.airlinepilotcentral.co...ead.php?t=1472
This thread is the continuation of "UPS talks resume" (aka. part one). The link above will provide background on part one. The split is only an administrative function to reduce the load on the database from a high traffic thread.
This thread is the continuation of "UPS talks resume" (aka. part one). The link above will provide background on part one. The split is only an administrative function to reduce the load on the database from a high traffic thread.
Warm Regards!
SEGATAKI
11-29-2005, 09:12 AM
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
UPS MGT Replacement Pilots
NoKoolAid,
You made the right decision staying at Fedex. Here's why:
Fedex BELIEVES in proper and progressive management. This is something that you can sink your teeth into and get behind. Something you can gain loyalty to.
UPS, is the exact opposite. They lead by fear, sarcassm, and ridicule. As the old saying goes, "The beatings will continue until moral improves". This is the 50's style of management that UPS follows. Don't let their buzzwords and catch phrases of, "....to be the safest airline in the world, where our people enjoy coming to work".
Its not like that. I have been at 5 previous airlines. Never once, was I called at home by the chief pilot. Days off were days off. Unless, you were going to get fired. Ask any captain how often they have gotten called at home while working at UPS. Maybe 4x a year. And ask them how often they got called when they first upgraded. Times that by 4.
UPS always has the implied hammer. They accomplish this through their little middle pilot managers that run around asking questions of why line captain x did this or that. In addition to the United Way and catering that someone else mentioned.
This is the way of life at UPS. Sorry. They also have 90+ years of dealing with the teamsters. And they LOVE fighting with labor. It is their comfort zone. It's, "what they do". And they do it very very well. Just ask any of the guys that have been fired, or, temporarily taken hostage, I should say, until they get their job back. Ridiculous. They just love to poke and screw around with the pilot group as a whole on a daily basis to see how united we are.
I love the stability of UPS. It is as close as working for the government in stability that you can get. However, I have started over 5x in my career. It is a painful process. I wont leave UPS because of knowing that pain. And that's why people stay. Because UPS is stable, and starting over can be detrimental to your health, your marriage, and your life. So the people who would say, if you don't like it, leave, have no concept.
As far as changing something, as someone responded already, going to the dark side is a one way door. I, and probably many others have been offered to interview. Beyond the yearly mailing by UPS of, hey! Come to management! That we all get. Iīve been offered in person on two occassions and wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.
Sorry, the us vs them is a comfort zone that UPS loves. They have created it. And it is so silly because there is so little that they could do to get actual allegiance from the heart rather than fear of losing our jobs.
And that is all sincere writing.
You made the right decision staying at Fedex. Here's why:
Fedex BELIEVES in proper and progressive management. This is something that you can sink your teeth into and get behind. Something you can gain loyalty to.
UPS, is the exact opposite. They lead by fear, sarcassm, and ridicule. As the old saying goes, "The beatings will continue until moral improves". This is the 50's style of management that UPS follows. Don't let their buzzwords and catch phrases of, "....to be the safest airline in the world, where our people enjoy coming to work".
Its not like that. I have been at 5 previous airlines. Never once, was I called at home by the chief pilot. Days off were days off. Unless, you were going to get fired. Ask any captain how often they have gotten called at home while working at UPS. Maybe 4x a year. And ask them how often they got called when they first upgraded. Times that by 4.
UPS always has the implied hammer. They accomplish this through their little middle pilot managers that run around asking questions of why line captain x did this or that. In addition to the United Way and catering that someone else mentioned.
This is the way of life at UPS. Sorry. They also have 90+ years of dealing with the teamsters. And they LOVE fighting with labor. It is their comfort zone. It's, "what they do". And they do it very very well. Just ask any of the guys that have been fired, or, temporarily taken hostage, I should say, until they get their job back. Ridiculous. They just love to poke and screw around with the pilot group as a whole on a daily basis to see how united we are.
I love the stability of UPS. It is as close as working for the government in stability that you can get. However, I have started over 5x in my career. It is a painful process. I wont leave UPS because of knowing that pain. And that's why people stay. Because UPS is stable, and starting over can be detrimental to your health, your marriage, and your life. So the people who would say, if you don't like it, leave, have no concept.
As far as changing something, as someone responded already, going to the dark side is a one way door. I, and probably many others have been offered to interview. Beyond the yearly mailing by UPS of, hey! Come to management! That we all get. Iīve been offered in person on two occassions and wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.
Sorry, the us vs them is a comfort zone that UPS loves. They have created it. And it is so silly because there is so little that they could do to get actual allegiance from the heart rather than fear of losing our jobs.
And that is all sincere writing.
11-29-2005, 11:16 PM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2005
Posts: 170
MAP
I am not sure which Fedex you work for but.... I disagree. Our pilot managers are our adversaries, they are not on your side, they are not here to be your advocate, they will not be sitting with you at the green table. When they pick a Chief Pilot, they pick a yes-man. Heck, Jack Lewis sits on the COMPANY side of the contract negociations. Another CP, GD, is going back to the line soon. He asked one of his friends if he thinks that "the line pilots will hold it against him," some of the stuff he has done. So even HE knows he was on the other side.
As for the other departments.... managers have told the working bees that it is us, the pilots, that have taken away their jumpseats, that us, the pilots, are all paid over $200,000 a year (even the Commercial Appeal says I am average at $179,000!!), that it is us, the pilots and our union, that are causing problems at the company.
We do have a lot of NICE people in management. And I am not out to get ya, or start a snow ball fight. It is kinda funny that we have totally different experiences at the same company.
Divide and conquer. Crandall did it. Fred does it.
I am not sure which Fedex you work for but.... I disagree. Our pilot managers are our adversaries, they are not on your side, they are not here to be your advocate, they will not be sitting with you at the green table. When they pick a Chief Pilot, they pick a yes-man. Heck, Jack Lewis sits on the COMPANY side of the contract negociations. Another CP, GD, is going back to the line soon. He asked one of his friends if he thinks that "the line pilots will hold it against him," some of the stuff he has done. So even HE knows he was on the other side.
As for the other departments.... managers have told the working bees that it is us, the pilots, that have taken away their jumpseats, that us, the pilots, are all paid over $200,000 a year (even the Commercial Appeal says I am average at $179,000!!), that it is us, the pilots and our union, that are causing problems at the company.
We do have a lot of NICE people in management. And I am not out to get ya, or start a snow ball fight. It is kinda funny that we have totally different experiences at the same company.
Divide and conquer. Crandall did it. Fred does it.
11-30-2005, 04:55 AM
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
"It is kinda funny that we have totally different experiences at the same company."
and
"I am not sure which Fedex you work for but...."
FedEx1, I dont know how you construed my previous post into thinking I work at FedEx. I believe at one point I said, " I wont leave UPS because of .....".
I thought it was pretty clear.
But as far as FedEx and what you are experiencing over there, I'm sorry to hear your division of labor vs management. Hey, at least your pilot managers have a line number and are in the union! That is the proper way.
It does take a lot of guys behind the scenes to run the airline, pilot rated guys, as previously mentioned. But I think you are much better off that these guys are all union members. At UPS, as you know, they are not union members.
That in-and-of-itself creates a lot of friction at UPS. Very much an us vs them situation. And UPS created it in the corporate model they set up, and the 90 plus years of dealing with labor. UPS loves that fighting. I dont know when the teamsters came on the property. I dont think it was the full 98 years ago, though.
Suffice it to say that UPS has years of experience in testing unions. It sounds like Fred is doing the same. Which is typical enough. From what we heard on the street, Fred was pieessed as heell when you guys went union. And vowed to break your union.
NoKoolAid made the right move, in my opinion, staying put at FedEx. You guys are an airline, born an airline. UPS has a completely different view of their airline because they still view themselves as a freight company. That makes for some pretty big philosophical differences that result in some pretty poor pilot facilities, relations, etc....
From what I understand, there is absolutely no comparison between your sort facility and Memphis and the UPS sort facility in SDF. 5 star vs 3 star. This is just one of the philosophical differences of us being a freighter company in philosophy vs you being an airline in philosophy.
and
"I am not sure which Fedex you work for but...."
FedEx1, I dont know how you construed my previous post into thinking I work at FedEx. I believe at one point I said, " I wont leave UPS because of .....".
I thought it was pretty clear.
But as far as FedEx and what you are experiencing over there, I'm sorry to hear your division of labor vs management. Hey, at least your pilot managers have a line number and are in the union! That is the proper way.
It does take a lot of guys behind the scenes to run the airline, pilot rated guys, as previously mentioned. But I think you are much better off that these guys are all union members. At UPS, as you know, they are not union members.
That in-and-of-itself creates a lot of friction at UPS. Very much an us vs them situation. And UPS created it in the corporate model they set up, and the 90 plus years of dealing with labor. UPS loves that fighting. I dont know when the teamsters came on the property. I dont think it was the full 98 years ago, though.
Suffice it to say that UPS has years of experience in testing unions. It sounds like Fred is doing the same. Which is typical enough. From what we heard on the street, Fred was pieessed as heell when you guys went union. And vowed to break your union.
NoKoolAid made the right move, in my opinion, staying put at FedEx. You guys are an airline, born an airline. UPS has a completely different view of their airline because they still view themselves as a freight company. That makes for some pretty big philosophical differences that result in some pretty poor pilot facilities, relations, etc....
From what I understand, there is absolutely no comparison between your sort facility and Memphis and the UPS sort facility in SDF. 5 star vs 3 star. This is just one of the philosophical differences of us being a freighter company in philosophy vs you being an airline in philosophy.
11-30-2005, 08:41 AM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2005
Posts: 170
I figured you worked for Fedex since your post started out with a statement about what Fedex management believes. (Yeah... right, that purple promise...)
Anyhoo, all the management pilots are NOT members of our union. Some opt out. And the ones that are do it for "political" reasons- it's about lookin' good to the masses. Trust me, they won't take your side if it hits the fan, they are the company's representative.
Fred does it again, looking good to those outside of his realm.
Anyhoo, all the management pilots are NOT members of our union. Some opt out. And the ones that are do it for "political" reasons- it's about lookin' good to the masses. Trust me, they won't take your side if it hits the fan, they are the company's representative.
Fred does it again, looking good to those outside of his realm.
11-30-2005, 10:16 AM
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
UPS Mgt Replacement Pilots
FedEx1
Imagine those guys that resigned their seniority number. And what is thought of them. Now imagine 200+ of them. That is the culture that UPS has created. The, "airline within an airline".
They call themselves managers, but in fact, that goes beyond the legal definition of what a, "manager", is. Because UPS already lost that case, in court, when a manager (Dorsey) tried to unionize the management group. He got fired. But...not without a settlement to him from UPS. And as part of that case, it was determined that the UPS, "management pilots", are really not, "managers". As the vast majority of them have no ability to spend the company money nor decide company policies. Yes, there are some that do. But most do not have this power. Therefore, they are there, without a line number, for one thing....strike time.
UPS pays these guys 200k to 500k per year, (they cut their own deals on being hired for pay), just...in.....case. The rest of the time, they do admin stuff.
And like NoKoolAid said, you need those guys to run an airline. But, the difference is that ALL, not even SOME, donīt have a line number. No seniority number.
That was done for a specific reason.
At least the managers, for the most part, at FedEx, have line numbers and will return to the line. And that is a big philosophical difference. Itīs how, "normal", airlines run.
Imagine those guys that resigned their seniority number. And what is thought of them. Now imagine 200+ of them. That is the culture that UPS has created. The, "airline within an airline".
They call themselves managers, but in fact, that goes beyond the legal definition of what a, "manager", is. Because UPS already lost that case, in court, when a manager (Dorsey) tried to unionize the management group. He got fired. But...not without a settlement to him from UPS. And as part of that case, it was determined that the UPS, "management pilots", are really not, "managers". As the vast majority of them have no ability to spend the company money nor decide company policies. Yes, there are some that do. But most do not have this power. Therefore, they are there, without a line number, for one thing....strike time.
UPS pays these guys 200k to 500k per year, (they cut their own deals on being hired for pay), just...in.....case. The rest of the time, they do admin stuff.
And like NoKoolAid said, you need those guys to run an airline. But, the difference is that ALL, not even SOME, donīt have a line number. No seniority number.
That was done for a specific reason.
At least the managers, for the most part, at FedEx, have line numbers and will return to the line. And that is a big philosophical difference. Itīs how, "normal", airlines run.
11-30-2005, 11:59 AM
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
Ups Mgt
I am getting a little tired of all the bashing of management at UPS.
This is the way it will be and it will not change. Management pilots are just as competent as line pilots and also have the additional perspective of the big picture.
They will fly if there is a strike and are not scabs!!
This is the way it will be and it will not change. Management pilots are just as competent as line pilots and also have the additional perspective of the big picture.
They will fly if there is a strike and are not scabs!!
11-30-2005, 12:19 PM
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by EDDIEMIKSIS
They will fly if there is a strike and are not scabs!!
Keep on telling yourself that they can cross a picket line and not be scabs, you might actually start to believe it, problem is, nobody else will.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
