Why Brown managers won't unionize
10-19-2007, 06:42 PM
#51
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Posts: 43
The straw poll results seem to indicate otherwise, specifically question 2.
"2). Do you support IPA doing whatever is necessary to fight for the integration of these supervisors into the current IPA/UPS seniority list according to their date of hire at UPS?
Yes: 1687 79.0%
No: 438 20.5%
No Response 10 0.5%"
I think you're trying to scare your fellow mgmt pilots.
"2). Do you support IPA doing whatever is necessary to fight for the integration of these supervisors into the current IPA/UPS seniority list according to their date of hire at UPS?
Yes: 1687 79.0%
No: 438 20.5%
No Response 10 0.5%"
I think you're trying to scare your fellow mgmt pilots.
10-19-2007, 06:46 PM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: 767 captain
Posts: 2,701
For any UPS management pilot reading this, keep in mind that nothing prevents the IPA from promising DOH integration, then once they have the 35% NMB cards, finding that the company's position to staple you to the bottom of the list is simply "too hard to overcome." I can see it now in the Flight Times, "Dear newly acquired IPA member, sorry to inform you but we were unsuccessful in negotiations. We tried our best." 
Then guess what? The IPA gets your job, then maintains their word by integrating you by the "principles of DOH" relative to the other management pilots at the bottom of the list.
Then guess what? The IPA gets your job, then maintains their word by integrating you by the "principles of DOH" relative to the other management pilots at the bottom of the list.
Even f that worst case scenario happened, your life would be worse how? I know a great many managers that will confide in private that they wish they had been hired as line guys and would be happy with any union number and some work rules
10-19-2007, 06:47 PM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: 767 captain
Posts: 2,701
10-19-2007, 06:57 PM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: MD11 FO
Posts: 171
Yes! The IPA has absolutely no reason to lie to you (or us). UPS mgmt has every reason in the world to lie to you. They are scared of losing control and will tell you anything and everything to scare, intimidate, and coerce you into not signing cards. If you think otherwise, why is UPS pulling out all the stops to prevent this from happening?
10-19-2007, 07:05 PM
#56
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Posts: 43
I do not doubt that may be true, but the number of management pilots that would be okay with "any union number" could probably be counted on one hand. In fact, I hope UPS makes an offer to allow any management pilot the opportunity to leave management for a new hire line number. That would be a really good thing for everyone, especially for those of us who see the glass half full on this side of the equation. The management job is not perfect, but if I could do it all over again, I wouldn't change a thing. That is not propaganda, just the honest truth of how many of us feel.
10-19-2007, 07:33 PM
#57
New ride...
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Posts: 534
1800 RVR, thanks for your candor.
For any UPS management pilot reading this, keep in mind that nothing prevents the IPA from promising DOH integration, then once they have the 35% NMB cards, finding that the company's position to staple you to the bottom of the list is simply "too hard to overcome." I can see it now in the Flight Times, "Dear newly acquired IPA member, sorry to inform you but we were unsuccessful in negotiations. We tried our best."
Then guess what? The IPA gets your job, then maintains their word by integrating you by the "principles of DOH" relative to the other management pilots at the bottom of the list.
Do not expect any IPA support to "fight the good fight" on your behalf. There are a lot of line guys that have full intentions of seeing you junior to them on the seniority list, regardless of their outward signs of sympathy for your plight. This whole IPA plan to take your job is exactly that! Caveat emptor.
For any UPS management pilot reading this, keep in mind that nothing prevents the IPA from promising DOH integration, then once they have the 35% NMB cards, finding that the company's position to staple you to the bottom of the list is simply "too hard to overcome." I can see it now in the Flight Times, "Dear newly acquired IPA member, sorry to inform you but we were unsuccessful in negotiations. We tried our best."
Then guess what? The IPA gets your job, then maintains their word by integrating you by the "principles of DOH" relative to the other management pilots at the bottom of the list.
Do not expect any IPA support to "fight the good fight" on your behalf. There are a lot of line guys that have full intentions of seeing you junior to them on the seniority list, regardless of their outward signs of sympathy for your plight. This whole IPA plan to take your job is exactly that! Caveat emptor.
If you go back and read the WHOLE post, you will see that I am in favor of the ACP's coming to the IPA. Are there people that I would rather not see come over? Sure, there are. But you know what? You have to take the good with the bad. In the long run, I think we will all be better off together. That line of mine that you quoted described exactly my last point. And, it was in response to a whole another line of reasoning from another poster.
It is not up to me if you chose to unionize. It is up to you and the others. You know where I stand, you know where the majority of the IPA stands. No one knows how this whole thing will go down, if it even does. But, I stand behind my words. If this goes down, it will happen with warts and all.
By the way, how do you know that integration will go down the way you said? I may have to call "bull$hit" on that one. Nice try!
10-19-2007, 08:23 PM
#58
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Posts: 43
Okay, I am first to admit that I was never the "Ace of the base," but I have been around the pattern a few times.
Do you honestly think the IPA really has no reason to lie? Do you truly believe pilots generally put the higher moral authority of right vs. wrong over such minor little issues like seniority integration? (For those of you not at UPS, please stop laughing!)
Any ex-Frontier pilots want to comment on their experience with UAL?
IPAMD11FO, with all due respect, I will agree to disagree with your statement. There is a lot at stake for both sides of the equation regarding how the seniority would integrate, and the IPA has a vested interest in providing the greatest seniority advantage to those who are currently dues-paying members of the IPA. That is exactly what I would expect if I were paying dues and I have to believe you would want the EB to put your interests before mine. And as you know, once the accretion process begins, there is no legal requirement for the IPA to do anything in favor of the group being accreted.
If the tables were turned, and fate somehow put me into a better seniority position over you, I suppose you wouldn't expect me to be too outraged with the union for this type of outcome. If you read between the lines of the Dan Katz video, you can see how the legal stage is being set for the IPA to say one thing (in order to suck in those who would might be inclined to send in an NMB card), then do another with regards to the seniority placement of the management pilots.
Please excuse my skepticism.
Do you honestly think the IPA really has no reason to lie? Do you truly believe pilots generally put the higher moral authority of right vs. wrong over such minor little issues like seniority integration? (For those of you not at UPS, please stop laughing!)
Any ex-Frontier pilots want to comment on their experience with UAL?
IPAMD11FO, with all due respect, I will agree to disagree with your statement. There is a lot at stake for both sides of the equation regarding how the seniority would integrate, and the IPA has a vested interest in providing the greatest seniority advantage to those who are currently dues-paying members of the IPA. That is exactly what I would expect if I were paying dues and I have to believe you would want the EB to put your interests before mine. And as you know, once the accretion process begins, there is no legal requirement for the IPA to do anything in favor of the group being accreted.
If the tables were turned, and fate somehow put me into a better seniority position over you, I suppose you wouldn't expect me to be too outraged with the union for this type of outcome. If you read between the lines of the Dan Katz video, you can see how the legal stage is being set for the IPA to say one thing (in order to suck in those who would might be inclined to send in an NMB card), then do another with regards to the seniority placement of the management pilots.
Please excuse my skepticism.
Last edited by UPSierra; 10-20-2007 at 04:03 AM.
10-19-2007, 11:25 PM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 757/767
Posts: 579
...Do you honestly think the IPA really has no reason to lie? Do you truly believe pilots generally put the higher moral authority of right vs. wrong over such minor little issues like seniority integration? (For those of you not at UPS, please stop laughing!)...
Any ex-Frontier pilots want to comment on their experience with UAL?
IPAMD11FO, with all due respect, I will agree to disagree with your statement. There is a lot at stake for both sides of the equation regarding how the seniority would integrate, and the IPA has a vested interest in providing the greatest seniority advantage to those who are currently dues-paying members of the IPA. That is exactly what I would expect if I were paying dues and I have to believe you would want the EB to put your interests before mine. And as you know, once the accretion process begins, there is no legal requirement for the IPA to do anything in favor of the group being accreted.
If the tables were turned, and fate somehow put me into a better seniority position over you, I suppose you wouldn't expect me to be too outraged with the union for this type of outcome. If you read between the lines of the Dan Katz video, you can see how the legal stage is being set for the IPA to say one thing (in order to suck in those who would might be inclined to send in an NMB card), then do another with regards to the seniority placement of the management pilots.
Please excuse my skeptism.
Any ex-Frontier pilots want to comment on their experience with UAL?
IPAMD11FO, with all due respect, I will agree to disagree with your statement. There is a lot at stake for both sides of the equation regarding how the seniority would integrate, and the IPA has a vested interest in providing the greatest seniority advantage to those who are currently dues-paying members of the IPA. That is exactly what I would expect if I were paying dues and I have to believe you would want the EB to put your interests before mine. And as you know, once the accretion process begins, there is no legal requirement for the IPA to do anything in favor of the group being accreted.
If the tables were turned, and fate somehow put me into a better seniority position over you, I suppose you wouldn't expect me to be too outraged with the union for this type of outcome. If you read between the lines of the Dan Katz video, you can see how the legal stage is being set for the IPA to say one thing (in order to suck in those who would might be inclined to send in an NMB card), then do another with regards to the seniority placement of the management pilots.
Please excuse my skeptism.
Last edited by Roberto; 10-20-2007 at 04:01 AM.
10-20-2007, 04:16 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 757/767
Posts: 579
There are many instances in business and government where managers cannot hire and fire, or mete out discipline, without sending it up to superiors.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
