Manning Level Hypothesis
08-31-2007, 04:22 AM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
MD11HOG
You take a legitimate stance, and the ho's fly out with guns blazing. They use the, "its legal under the CBA", excuse to be ho's. Remember, the last contract was the first contract. Most of the established carriers that have been around have limits. The ho's use our CBA to justify the degradation of our profession. The same one's used the, "it's legal under the CBA", during the entire contract negotiations. The only ones I could really see justifying the extra flying (to their own greedy selves) would be senior wide body Captains. Anyone else that does it is just delaying their upgrade time or a better quality of life line by working their butt off. I don't understand why they don't just go find an extra job or start a business to supplement their income. But, on the good side, they will probably have more health problems and die sooner. This may benefit you towards the end of your career.
You take a legitimate stance, and the ho's fly out with guns blazing. They use the, "its legal under the CBA", excuse to be ho's. Remember, the last contract was the first contract. Most of the established carriers that have been around have limits. The ho's use our CBA to justify the degradation of our profession. The same one's used the, "it's legal under the CBA", during the entire contract negotiations. The only ones I could really see justifying the extra flying (to their own greedy selves) would be senior wide body Captains. Anyone else that does it is just delaying their upgrade time or a better quality of life line by working their butt off. I don't understand why they don't just go find an extra job or start a business to supplement their income. But, on the good side, they will probably have more health problems and die sooner. This may benefit you towards the end of your career.
First--I don't work at an "established" carrier. Part of the reason I am where I am is stability. I didn't want to work at United--where the hiring and furloughs run on semi-predictable sign wave patterns. Look around--UAL, DAL, AAL, and others were hiring 96-00. Still, we hired well over 1000 folks during the same period. A few might have been guys who couldn't get on anywhere else, but the vast majority came here by choice. When you ask someone "so...why would you skip out on flight attendents, day flying, pass perks, etc...." one answer you'll hear a lot is stability and security.
Next--I realize you weren't calling "ho" at me directly, but in case I got caught in the frag pattern I'd like to point out I was a "nun" for 5 years. At the high water mark I was at about 1200 hours in my makeup bank. I've managed to work off 70 of those hours. Thats 5 years of doing a lot of drops and 5 months of picking up an extra trip here or then when bumped off a trip here or there. If I am screwing up someone's upgrade now (by the way--I'm in second lowest paying seat in the company...) I apologize. However, I'll point out that for the last 5 years my military obligations probably helped create the void they were hired to fill.
Next--how many side businesses do you have? I have two. Interview coaching and simulator sales have low overhead costs, and have been a good business for an airline pilot. However, I also own and operate a commercial horse stable and leson facility. It is a captial eating monster. Anytime you start a business, you are digging hard when you start up for a host of new expenses--advertising, web sites, equipment, etc. A stable has all the traditional expenses, plus the fact that many of my products also require to be fed and have their poop scooped up daily. It ain't cheap. However, as a 727 FO, a trip is worth (gross) about 700 bucks to me. An extra standby is worth about 500 bucks. One of the things I like about our job at FDX is if I face some extra expenses I can go grab the money to offset them. I think you are going to find the business owners at FDX actually are some of the "hos" you allude to, not the "nuns". I know one guy who owns a very successful mortgage business (probabably in a bit of slowdown now) in Dallas--he's a "flex" *****. Two more flexes I know started CTI, one of the most impressive pilot owned firms I've ever seen, and one of the inspirations for me going and trying it on my own. The guy who owns some sport cuts works B-reserve a lot--and (not trying to speak for him) I think does a lot of carryover. Why would they do this? Because even very successful businesses--while they generate income--still need a steady supply of cash to keep all the machinery oiled. Also--running a business creates headaches--generally the result of managing people and the associated issues. Going to fly a trip--even an a.m. out and back--is many times a nice "break" from the chaos and sometimes feels like easy money.
So--until you run at least one business--don't lecture those who do.
How much work did you do in the military? I flew fighters in the Guard for five years. That meant every time I went to work for the last 3 it was a pay cut. Do the guys who are flying C-17s around the globe, or the guys teaching students to fly T-38s down in Columbus, owe it to the future employees of this company to "suck up" the cut in pay in addition to their service to the country? Should their makeup banks be left alone so that the guys who've never served a day in their lives can upgrade a little quicker?
If I want some extra money, I got two choices. I can sit on my butt and wait around for an upgrade. With 4800 pilots here, and at 75% seniority, I got 3500 or so folks I need to "sit still and quit working" to allow me to make a bit more and advance. I can demand that in every contract we have an 80 hour cap. Or--like I do in business--I can work harder. I got a lifetime of experience doing the latter, and I don't think the former is going to work. So I work. I've bbeen working reserve carryover for two months no--and it ain't that bad. Its not like I am hub turning on weeklong pairings through EWR or flying five am O&Bs in a row. If reserve manning is high and you aren't getting called, it ain't that bad of a gig. Paying my bills, and having some extra to throw at my emerging business--is actually reducing my stress--but thanks for your concern. My back my not allow me to make it to 60/65, but stressing about guys working more than me won't be the thing that puts me in an early grave.
Last edited by Albief15; 08-31-2007 at 04:49 AM.
08-31-2007, 05:09 AM
#53
Ok, No more sleeping Dog
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: MD-11, F/O
Posts: 889
MD11HOG
You take a legitimate stance, and the ho's fly out with guns blazing. They use the, "its legal under the CBA", excuse to be ho's. Remember, the last contract was the first contract. Most of the established carriers that have been around have limits. The ho's use our CBA to justify the degradation of our profession. The same one's used the, "it's legal under the CBA", during the entire contract negotiations. The only ones I could really see justifying the extra flying (to their own greedy selves) would be senior wide body Captains. Anyone else that does it is just delaying their upgrade time or a better quality of life line by working their butt off. I don't understand why they don't just go find an extra job or start a business to supplement their income. But, on the good side, they will probably have more health problems and die sooner. This may benefit you towards the end of your career.
You take a legitimate stance, and the ho's fly out with guns blazing. They use the, "its legal under the CBA", excuse to be ho's. Remember, the last contract was the first contract. Most of the established carriers that have been around have limits. The ho's use our CBA to justify the degradation of our profession. The same one's used the, "it's legal under the CBA", during the entire contract negotiations. The only ones I could really see justifying the extra flying (to their own greedy selves) would be senior wide body Captains. Anyone else that does it is just delaying their upgrade time or a better quality of life line by working their butt off. I don't understand why they don't just go find an extra job or start a business to supplement their income. But, on the good side, they will probably have more health problems and die sooner. This may benefit you towards the end of your career.
08-31-2007, 05:34 AM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,338
08-31-2007, 05:45 AM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,931
Complaining folks are wrong picking up 18 hrs at straight pay is complaining your own paycheck isn't higher. Which is funny because you are also complaining about how those picking up the 18 hrs are being too greedy.
We are overmanned in many, if not all, seats. That has resulted in folks upgrading sooner than they should. It allows reserves to sit at home and spend time with family. It allows folks who should still be on SO or narrow FO pay to get wide FO pay. Same for CA.
Understanding the above makes me believe you are also complaining too many guys junior to you have upgraded.
I wish your pay was higher with more time off. But complaining about it, blaming others and generally attacking their moral fiber won't help. You need to deal with the dynamics of the situation. The situation dictates very little overtime.
If we were short and guys couldn't drop R days, there would be tons of complaining. Especially since the line holders would be doing advance volunteer.
The culture here is to over man the seats. The company now has a new tool to ensure they remain overmanned. New tool, old times.
We are overmanned in many, if not all, seats. That has resulted in folks upgrading sooner than they should. It allows reserves to sit at home and spend time with family. It allows folks who should still be on SO or narrow FO pay to get wide FO pay. Same for CA.
Understanding the above makes me believe you are also complaining too many guys junior to you have upgraded.
I wish your pay was higher with more time off. But complaining about it, blaming others and generally attacking their moral fiber won't help. You need to deal with the dynamics of the situation. The situation dictates very little overtime.
If we were short and guys couldn't drop R days, there would be tons of complaining. Especially since the line holders would be doing advance volunteer.
The culture here is to over man the seats. The company now has a new tool to ensure they remain overmanned. New tool, old times.
Last edited by Gunter; 08-31-2007 at 05:52 AM.
08-31-2007, 05:56 AM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,931
And another thing....
For guys that did not extra flying during negotiations....
When are they supposed to do open time? Never?
If you are going to ask for some unity during critical times, you have to let folks loose afterwards.
BTW, from a theoretical perspective, the only way to get the company into an undermanned situation again is to have them upgrade too few due to lots of "usual" open time pickup then have that pickup suddenly drop. I think that happened to them during the last contract negotiations and they don't want it to happen again. I think an undermanned situation would be a errible failure for the bean counters and it would be short lived until they could catch up.
For guys that did not extra flying during negotiations....
When are they supposed to do open time? Never?
If you are going to ask for some unity during critical times, you have to let folks loose afterwards.
BTW, from a theoretical perspective, the only way to get the company into an undermanned situation again is to have them upgrade too few due to lots of "usual" open time pickup then have that pickup suddenly drop. I think that happened to them during the last contract negotiations and they don't want it to happen again. I think an undermanned situation would be a errible failure for the bean counters and it would be short lived until they could catch up.
Last edited by Gunter; 08-31-2007 at 07:00 AM.
08-31-2007, 06:20 AM
#58
Thx Age 65
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: MD11CAP
Posts: 1,041
Me thinks the ones complaining about guys doing CIA or picking up open time are the guys who used to get called for Drf or vlt quite often, you know, the aforementioned "got to guys"
The only guys who are getting screwed by the new rules are the junior VTO guys, since there is a lot less open time by the time the VTO's get built. That equals a lot of reserves, which means I only get called for 2, yes 2 trips last month. A grand total of 4 days.
I fail to see the down side.
The only guys who are getting screwed by the new rules are the junior VTO guys, since there is a lot less open time by the time the VTO's get built. That equals a lot of reserves, which means I only get called for 2, yes 2 trips last month. A grand total of 4 days.
I fail to see the down side.
08-31-2007, 07:06 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 1559
Posts: 1,535
So, let me get this straight: If a pilot drops a trip or series of trips and takes a BIG hit in the middle of the following month's check, he is never supposed to make up or recoup the hours that were his in the first place? Sorry...I can't ask someone to do that. I'm on the other end. Less than 12 hours in my make-up, but I don't drop trips and never make them up. I don't bid carryover and conflict it either, so I never have built a bank up doing that.
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