To HerkDriver: Why I am Out of ALPA
08-18-2007, 01:17 PM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,338
And I can see you picking my pocket every month in my pay statement. Bob, you're shoplifting the booty.
At the risk of sounding hypocritical....I avoided answering him as long as possible, especially when someone else asked no one to respond to him.....but others have tried to engage him in rational debate.....Can this please be the last post on this subject? That way he can keep bumping this to the top.....and he will be seen for what he is.....
08-18-2007, 01:37 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Retired FDX MD11 Capt
Posts: 888
That is pretty tough talk from someone who will not put his name or credentials on it.
I was furloughed in January 1983 when Lorenzo asked ALPA to put me (and 149 of my compadres) on the street, then fly an extra three hours per month to make up for it. ALPA complied.CAL furloughed you, not ALPA. A number of furloughed guys took that to heart and later crossed the picket line as a way of saying thanks to their "brethren" for putting them on the street. Nonetheless, I was a very active participant in the strike.
But, more to the point, in our profession we have a big problem because when we start over, we literally start at the bottom of the totem pole at new-hire wages. When you go on strike for two years, you don't lose just your income for that period. In many cases, you lose your job, your seniority, and your retirement funds as well. You lose it all. So it is not just a simple matter of calculating the dates.You were out for six and a half years. So how did you calculate it?
If you read my article, "The Anatomy of an Irresolvable Dilemma...," you have seen how our reckless adherence to "seniority" destablizes us an a unified body under these circumstances. The article may be found at:
http://www.foundationx.com/pilot/
I'll take the seniority system, with all of its imperfections over "merit based upgrades" (been, there didn't like it) any day.
Apparently, you have not had the opportunity to put your family through such an affair, otherwise, you would never use such language to me.You are overly sensitive. I equate you to a Vietnam Vet who decides not to pay taxes (while collecting any bennies you can) because you "don't like the way the country is going". Basically, you are a tax cheat. Enjoying all of the benefits of a union contract but not willing to pay for it. Furthermore, since the FedEx pilots have never fought even a skirmish, much less a war of the kind we fought at CAL, I think it is safe to say that everything you have at FedEx comes from the the wars that were previously fought by others, and from management benevolence. Does it not seem that FedEx is now having its way with us as it recovers its "losses" under the CBA? I was warned by a long-time PSIT member before the contract was signed that this was going to happen. He voted against it because there were "too many holes in the scheduling section."
My guess is that you are among those who want to put pilots out of a job simply because they turn 60 years of age.I don't give a crap about AGE 60. Once Foxhunter is off the property you can go till you croak for all I care. I am concerned about any possible changes to medical standards, and retirement rules that my come about after the change. Some of those pilots are my friends and we walked the picket line together in order to defend the profession. Without their effort, you would be making half the salary that you are currently making. What's more, it is likely that you want to put them out simply so that you can take their jobs. This is exactly what strike breakers do and that is why ALPA, at its core, is a dog-eat-dog, scab organization. Its pilots wouldn't fight a battle to protect each other if they had to. Until things change, I choose to not take part.You do however, choose to avail yourself of all the bonuses and pay increases that we get as a result of our negotiated contract.
It was the chest-thumpers, like yourself, who were the first to cross our picket line. We can see you coming a mile away, and your tough talk does nothing to change that.
You say that you lost ten years of your airline career. You lied. That's not tough talk. It's a fact. If you ever have the misfortune of being my F/O you'll know exactly who I am.
Bob
I was furloughed in January 1983 when Lorenzo asked ALPA to put me (and 149 of my compadres) on the street, then fly an extra three hours per month to make up for it. ALPA complied.CAL furloughed you, not ALPA. A number of furloughed guys took that to heart and later crossed the picket line as a way of saying thanks to their "brethren" for putting them on the street. Nonetheless, I was a very active participant in the strike.
But, more to the point, in our profession we have a big problem because when we start over, we literally start at the bottom of the totem pole at new-hire wages. When you go on strike for two years, you don't lose just your income for that period. In many cases, you lose your job, your seniority, and your retirement funds as well. You lose it all. So it is not just a simple matter of calculating the dates.You were out for six and a half years. So how did you calculate it?
If you read my article, "The Anatomy of an Irresolvable Dilemma...," you have seen how our reckless adherence to "seniority" destablizes us an a unified body under these circumstances. The article may be found at:
http://www.foundationx.com/pilot/
I'll take the seniority system, with all of its imperfections over "merit based upgrades" (been, there didn't like it) any day.
Apparently, you have not had the opportunity to put your family through such an affair, otherwise, you would never use such language to me.You are overly sensitive. I equate you to a Vietnam Vet who decides not to pay taxes (while collecting any bennies you can) because you "don't like the way the country is going". Basically, you are a tax cheat. Enjoying all of the benefits of a union contract but not willing to pay for it. Furthermore, since the FedEx pilots have never fought even a skirmish, much less a war of the kind we fought at CAL, I think it is safe to say that everything you have at FedEx comes from the the wars that were previously fought by others, and from management benevolence. Does it not seem that FedEx is now having its way with us as it recovers its "losses" under the CBA? I was warned by a long-time PSIT member before the contract was signed that this was going to happen. He voted against it because there were "too many holes in the scheduling section."
My guess is that you are among those who want to put pilots out of a job simply because they turn 60 years of age.I don't give a crap about AGE 60. Once Foxhunter is off the property you can go till you croak for all I care. I am concerned about any possible changes to medical standards, and retirement rules that my come about after the change. Some of those pilots are my friends and we walked the picket line together in order to defend the profession. Without their effort, you would be making half the salary that you are currently making. What's more, it is likely that you want to put them out simply so that you can take their jobs. This is exactly what strike breakers do and that is why ALPA, at its core, is a dog-eat-dog, scab organization. Its pilots wouldn't fight a battle to protect each other if they had to. Until things change, I choose to not take part.You do however, choose to avail yourself of all the bonuses and pay increases that we get as a result of our negotiated contract.
It was the chest-thumpers, like yourself, who were the first to cross our picket line. We can see you coming a mile away, and your tough talk does nothing to change that.
You say that you lost ten years of your airline career. You lied. That's not tough talk. It's a fact. If you ever have the misfortune of being my F/O you'll know exactly who I am.
Bob
My last post on any subject involving you.
Last edited by ClutchCargo; 08-18-2007 at 01:43 PM.
08-18-2007, 01:42 PM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 137
To those of us who have fought the wars, it is you who are pickpocketing us, especially with regard to Age 60. We have paid plenty of dues, more than you ever will, thus, we have an entirely different perspective on the matter.
Neither of us is absolutely right or wrong. We simply have a different perspectives based on experience. My writings have been dedicated to helping us achieve a common perspective. Without that, this infighting will never end, and everyone will continue to think that their view is the best. See the following article for a history of how this came to be at:
http://www.foundationx.com/pilot/compete/
Bob
Last edited by rjlavender; 08-18-2007 at 03:49 PM.
08-18-2007, 02:41 PM
#44
Slainge Var'
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Zeppelin Tail Gunner
Posts: 1,530
It might help to know that I consider myself to be the most ardent "unionist" on the property. ]
And Adolph Hitler enjoyed his Bar Mitzvah! Bobby, you could consider yourself the AFLAC duck and it wouldn't matter. We are dues paying union members and you are anti-union. Oh that's right, you paid dues once so you get a free ride. Kinda like Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine once so it's OK to shoot the president. Pal, face the facts, you wear the other teams colors.
And Adolph Hitler enjoyed his Bar Mitzvah! Bobby, you could consider yourself the AFLAC duck and it wouldn't matter. We are dues paying union members and you are anti-union. Oh that's right, you paid dues once so you get a free ride. Kinda like Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine once so it's OK to shoot the president. Pal, face the facts, you wear the other teams colors.
08-18-2007, 03:07 PM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 503
That is pretty tough talk from someone who will not put his name or credentials on it.
I was furloughed in January 1983 when Lorenzo asked ALPA to put me (and 149 of my compadres) on the street, then fly an extra three hours per month to make up for it. ALPA complied. A number of furloughed guys took that to heart and later crossed the picket line as a way of saying thanks to their "brethren" for putting them on the street. Nonetheless, I was a very active participant in the strike.
Bob
I was furloughed in January 1983 when Lorenzo asked ALPA to put me (and 149 of my compadres) on the street, then fly an extra three hours per month to make up for it. ALPA complied. A number of furloughed guys took that to heart and later crossed the picket line as a way of saying thanks to their "brethren" for putting them on the street. Nonetheless, I was a very active participant in the strike.
Bob
Oh and I do bring in different view point because I have a family member who was also at CAL. He did 37 years and was out on strike the whole time. He lost his pension and everything else Frank took. But he went back and paid his dues till the day he retired. And, specifically he remembers you. Some of your grandizing about your level of picketing/involvement at CAL is getting a tad bit inflated I'd say. You need to be more careful with how you remember those "glory" days.
You are welcome to post good info, but sometimes your high horse is not really as high as you are saying it is.
....
08-18-2007, 03:48 PM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 137
However, your merit based system is impossible to attain and there is no valid method of determining where you should be on the merit scale. It smells a lot like you want credit for working at CAL and didn't like having to start over at FDX.
Some of your grandizing about your level of picketing/involvement at CAL is getting a tad bit inflated I'd say. You need to be more careful with how you remember those "glory" days.
Some of your grandizing about your level of picketing/involvement at CAL is getting a tad bit inflated I'd say. You need to be more careful with how you remember those "glory" days.
I have never advocated a "merit based system." I don't know where that came from. What I have said is that you cannot have wide-ranging differentials in pay and working conditions across a spectrum of similarly-skilled workers and not invite comptetition to develop among them.
This topic is covered in both of the articles whose links I have posted on this board. Our differentials are so wide at FedEx that "junior" pilots can easily be wooed into walking over their counterparts in order to get a better deal. If management makes them a better offer than the union, they will eventually take it, no matter how much jawboning for "unity" takes place. I suggest that this is going to get worse given the quality of trips.
"Seniority" as a "political system" that protects against management favoritism is fine, but using it to justify wide differentials in compensation is inviting internal competition. As somebody else wrote on this board, we need to work from the bottom up to close the gap and make things more fair (and there are ways to do this without causing discomfort). If we do not do that, management will use the gaps to conquer us. They do not have to "divide" us, because we have already divided ourselves.
I am not putting myself above anyone else here. I have just had different experiences. The repetition of my comments should not be interpreted as "grandizing." Unfortunately, those who have not been reading make repetition necessary.
By the way, you are aware, are you not, that some years ago, ALPA invited all the people who crossed the picket line to join the union with no past dues or repentance necessary?
Bob
08-18-2007, 03:57 PM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 137
Here is a question for you: During my presentation to the MEC in early 2005, I suggested that in order to make things more "fair" across the seniority list, we should pay night flyers a meaningful premium and they should accrue more vacation time for each night they fly.
The traditionalists will say, "The good deals come with seniority, young man. You just have to wait and pay your dues."
I say: That argument might have worked when airlines were regulated but it does not work now because it causes tremendous friction among pilots and wildly differing views of what is important during negotiations.
What would you say?
Bob
The traditionalists will say, "The good deals come with seniority, young man. You just have to wait and pay your dues."
I say: That argument might have worked when airlines were regulated but it does not work now because it causes tremendous friction among pilots and wildly differing views of what is important during negotiations.
What would you say?
Bob
08-18-2007, 04:18 PM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 503
I am and personally, I had huge problems with that idea. However, I was given an influx of reality from my CAL relative and his position was that the scabs were water under the bridge. There was no way to unring the bell. With 1200 non-members CAL was a house divided. While it seemed like ALPA was selling itself for money, it was also viewed as an opportunity to get a unified CAL under a national union umbrella. It not the ideal situation but the lessor of multiple evils. Forgive but not forget. Hopefully, over the next decade the union can pervasively work its way back into everyone lives there.
08-18-2007, 04:28 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 503
Here is a question for you: During my presentation to the MEC in early 2005, I suggested that in order to make things more "fair" across the seniority list, we should pay night flyers a meaningful premium and they should accrue more vacation time for each night they fly.
The traditionalists will say, "The good deals come with seniority, young man. You just have to wait and pay your dues."
I say: That argument might have worked when airlines were regulated but it does not work now because it causes tremendous friction among pilots and wildly differing views of what is important during negotiations.
What would you say?
Bob
The traditionalists will say, "The good deals come with seniority, young man. You just have to wait and pay your dues."
I say: That argument might have worked when airlines were regulated but it does not work now because it causes tremendous friction among pilots and wildly differing views of what is important during negotiations.
What would you say?
Bob
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