Silent Majority
08-01-2007, 09:43 AM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: MD11 FO
Posts: 128
Silent Majority
BC's latest diatribe has compelled me to quit lurking and sign up for this forum. I am a pilot considering taking my family to HKG. It's funny how BC considers those who don't eat this sh$tburger LOA as malcontents. He sounds considerably low-self.
I want to move my family there but I won't do it just for the experience at a financial loss. My main concern is the schooling. No choice but private school-unlike the US.
I voted No and would go back and vote No again if I could just because BC offends me.
I want to move my family there but I won't do it just for the experience at a financial loss. My main concern is the schooling. No choice but private school-unlike the US.
I voted No and would go back and vote No again if I could just because BC offends me.
08-01-2007, 10:21 AM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Captain
Posts: 101
Same here! We can 12 step this just like AA. "Hi, I'm Family ATM and I was a lurker." And you know what, in the end you find out that you only have control over yourself. So all this crap over "don't take money away from the other guy" is just that, crap. If this LOA does not work for you personally then vote no, if you can make it work for vote yes. It is my belief that the vast majority will find that this LOA will not work for them if they had to go overseas. The MEC and BC is out of step with the crewforce.
The company wants RLA protections overseas and we want to fly all the FedEx freight we can any where we can. The union now knows, and so does the company, where we the crewforce stands on this issue and what type of package we require to live overseas. It would have been nice if they would have asked before this all started but they didn't. So, back to the table boys. Hopefully the are there now but if not you better set up a meeting for Aug, 11th.
Will we get everything we are asking for on these boards, probably not. But we will get something that we had input to and comes alot closer to meeting some of our more realistic expectations.
Another of my 2 cents. I guess I'm up to a nickel now.
The company wants RLA protections overseas and we want to fly all the FedEx freight we can any where we can. The union now knows, and so does the company, where we the crewforce stands on this issue and what type of package we require to live overseas. It would have been nice if they would have asked before this all started but they didn't. So, back to the table boys. Hopefully the are there now but if not you better set up a meeting for Aug, 11th.
Will we get everything we are asking for on these boards, probably not. But we will get something that we had input to and comes alot closer to meeting some of our more realistic expectations.
Another of my 2 cents. I guess I'm up to a nickel now.
08-01-2007, 11:13 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,199
Welcome Aboard "Pig on the Wing" and "Family ATM"....posting your thoughts on APC adds value to this debate.
Hopefully the other lurkers who are part of the Silent Majority will also chose to participate in this forum.
Piggybacking on your desire, but inability, to bid an FDA based on this LOA, I ask everyone who's considering to vote "Yes" on this LOA to go thru this exercise before you determine you will be able to make the move under this LOA.
Step 1. Go to your closets and lay out 4 seasons worth of clothes for you, then your spouse, then your children --- now remember, include jackets, boots, things you use all year round. Let me know if you're even close to being under 500lbs
Step 2. Now go around the house and look at things you think you might like to take along if you were leaving home for 2-3 yrs. Some family photos, certain specific household items and yes, maybe even some furniture. Are we still even close to being under 500 lbs? I'll stop there, but you get the point --- anything above 500lbs is coming out of your pocket. Either in shipping costs or bought on the local FDA economy.
Step 3. Go look in the garage. Those cars, can't go under the LOA. Will you sell 'em, keep 'em, ship 'em. The last two options come out of your pocket. And if you sell, how much will your ground transportation cost in the FDA? How much will the replacement vehicles cost you when you return from the FDA?
Step 4. Walk all the way out into the street. Peer back at your house. If you rent that's easy --- say goodbye, and just do the math on your current rent + $2,700 and see what that will get you in your FDA. If you own --- ya need to figure your monthly house payment and add the $2,700, but then again don't forget to consider the tax advantages of paying a mortgage (not rent), the possible appreciation and the transaction costs of selling, and then buying a home again when you return.
Step 5. Examine what you pay for current schooling. If it's over $15K per child --- press on with a big smile on your face. If not, that's extra money that will come out of your FDA paycheck.
Step 6. Examine your current medical, dental and vision benefits your family utilizes. Now compare those to ---- whoa sorry. No information there at all. OK, just trust the company they'll be the same as stateside. The folks at Subic haven't had any problems at all --- I think.
Step 7.....
Well, I think you get the point. Living abroad can sound (and be) quite an adventure. (I know, I lived outside the mainland for 13 1/2 yrs). But making those transoceanic moves can be difficult and very costly on both ends of the move (I know, I made 3 round trips under much, much more favorable move packages).
Simply put, while the MEC feels there are significant economic gains with this LOA you'll find when you go thru the process of actually planning and executing your move, and then living your daily life abroad, there are not.
With with what the company is offering very few folks will have any increase in their QOL.
If you honestly feel you'll have economic gains and an increased QOL under this LOA --- vote "Yes".
If not -- vote "No".
I think we all know where the truth, and the silent majority, reside.
Hopefully the other lurkers who are part of the Silent Majority will also chose to participate in this forum.
Piggybacking on your desire, but inability, to bid an FDA based on this LOA, I ask everyone who's considering to vote "Yes" on this LOA to go thru this exercise before you determine you will be able to make the move under this LOA.
Step 1. Go to your closets and lay out 4 seasons worth of clothes for you, then your spouse, then your children --- now remember, include jackets, boots, things you use all year round. Let me know if you're even close to being under 500lbs
Step 2. Now go around the house and look at things you think you might like to take along if you were leaving home for 2-3 yrs. Some family photos, certain specific household items and yes, maybe even some furniture. Are we still even close to being under 500 lbs? I'll stop there, but you get the point --- anything above 500lbs is coming out of your pocket. Either in shipping costs or bought on the local FDA economy.
Step 3. Go look in the garage. Those cars, can't go under the LOA. Will you sell 'em, keep 'em, ship 'em. The last two options come out of your pocket. And if you sell, how much will your ground transportation cost in the FDA? How much will the replacement vehicles cost you when you return from the FDA?
Step 4. Walk all the way out into the street. Peer back at your house. If you rent that's easy --- say goodbye, and just do the math on your current rent + $2,700 and see what that will get you in your FDA. If you own --- ya need to figure your monthly house payment and add the $2,700, but then again don't forget to consider the tax advantages of paying a mortgage (not rent), the possible appreciation and the transaction costs of selling, and then buying a home again when you return.
Step 5. Examine what you pay for current schooling. If it's over $15K per child --- press on with a big smile on your face. If not, that's extra money that will come out of your FDA paycheck.
Step 6. Examine your current medical, dental and vision benefits your family utilizes. Now compare those to ---- whoa sorry. No information there at all. OK, just trust the company they'll be the same as stateside. The folks at Subic haven't had any problems at all --- I think.
Step 7.....
Well, I think you get the point. Living abroad can sound (and be) quite an adventure. (I know, I lived outside the mainland for 13 1/2 yrs). But making those transoceanic moves can be difficult and very costly on both ends of the move (I know, I made 3 round trips under much, much more favorable move packages).
Simply put, while the MEC feels there are significant economic gains with this LOA you'll find when you go thru the process of actually planning and executing your move, and then living your daily life abroad, there are not.
With with what the company is offering very few folks will have any increase in their QOL.
If you honestly feel you'll have economic gains and an increased QOL under this LOA --- vote "Yes".
If not -- vote "No".
I think we all know where the truth, and the silent majority, reside.
08-01-2007, 12:30 PM
#4
...Whatever It Is!
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,680
Welcome Aboard "Pig on the Wing" and "Family ATM"....posting your thoughts on APC adds value to this debate.
Hopefully the other lurkers who are part of the Silent Majority will also chose to participate in this forum.
Piggybacking on your desire, but inability, to bid an FDA based on this LOA, I ask everyone who's considering to vote "Yes" on this LOA to go thru this exercise before you determine you will be able to make the move under this LOA.
Step 1. Go to your closets and lay out 4 seasons worth of clothes for you, then your spouse, then your children --- now remember, include jackets, boots, things you use all year round. Let me know if you're even close to being under 500lbs
Step 2. Now go around the house and look at things you think you might like to take along if you were leaving home for 2-3 yrs. Some family photos, certain specific household items and yes, maybe even some furniture. Are we still even close to being under 500 lbs? I'll stop there, but you get the point --- anything above 500lbs is coming out of your pocket. Either in shipping costs or bought on the local FDA economy.
Step 3. Go look in the garage. Those cars, can't go under the LOA. Will you sell 'em, keep 'em, ship 'em. The last two options come out of your pocket. And if you sell, how much will your ground transportation cost in the FDA? How much will the replacement vehicles cost you when you return from the FDA?
Step 4. Walk all the way out into the street. Peer back at your house. If you rent that's easy --- say goodbye, and just do the math on your current rent + $2,700 and see what that will get you in your FDA. If you own --- ya need to figure your monthly house payment and add the $2,700, but then again don't forget to consider the tax advantages of paying a mortgage (not rent), the possible appreciation and the transaction costs of selling, and then buying a home again when you return.
Step 5. Examine what you pay for current schooling. If it's over $15K per child --- press on with a big smile on your face. If not, that's extra money that will come out of your FDA paycheck.
Step 6. Examine your current medical, dental and vision benefits your family utilizes. Now compare those to ---- whoa sorry. No information there at all. OK, just trust the company they'll be the same as stateside. The folks at Subic haven't had any problems at all --- I think.
Step 7.....
Well, I think you get the point. Living abroad can sound (and be) quite an adventure. (I know, I lived outside the mainland for 13 1/2 yrs). But making those transoceanic moves can be difficult and very costly on both ends of the move (I know, I made 3 round trips under much, much more favorable move packages).
Simply put, while the MEC feels there are significant economic gains with this LOA you'll find when you go thru the process of actually planning and executing your move, and then living your daily life abroad, there are not.
With with what the company is offering very few folks will have any increase in their QOL.
If you honestly feel you'll have economic gains and an increased QOL under this LOA --- vote "Yes".
If not -- vote "No".
I think we all know where the truth, and the silent majority, reside.
Hopefully the other lurkers who are part of the Silent Majority will also chose to participate in this forum.
Piggybacking on your desire, but inability, to bid an FDA based on this LOA, I ask everyone who's considering to vote "Yes" on this LOA to go thru this exercise before you determine you will be able to make the move under this LOA.
Step 1. Go to your closets and lay out 4 seasons worth of clothes for you, then your spouse, then your children --- now remember, include jackets, boots, things you use all year round. Let me know if you're even close to being under 500lbs
Step 2. Now go around the house and look at things you think you might like to take along if you were leaving home for 2-3 yrs. Some family photos, certain specific household items and yes, maybe even some furniture. Are we still even close to being under 500 lbs? I'll stop there, but you get the point --- anything above 500lbs is coming out of your pocket. Either in shipping costs or bought on the local FDA economy.
Step 3. Go look in the garage. Those cars, can't go under the LOA. Will you sell 'em, keep 'em, ship 'em. The last two options come out of your pocket. And if you sell, how much will your ground transportation cost in the FDA? How much will the replacement vehicles cost you when you return from the FDA?
Step 4. Walk all the way out into the street. Peer back at your house. If you rent that's easy --- say goodbye, and just do the math on your current rent + $2,700 and see what that will get you in your FDA. If you own --- ya need to figure your monthly house payment and add the $2,700, but then again don't forget to consider the tax advantages of paying a mortgage (not rent), the possible appreciation and the transaction costs of selling, and then buying a home again when you return.
Step 5. Examine what you pay for current schooling. If it's over $15K per child --- press on with a big smile on your face. If not, that's extra money that will come out of your FDA paycheck.
Step 6. Examine your current medical, dental and vision benefits your family utilizes. Now compare those to ---- whoa sorry. No information there at all. OK, just trust the company they'll be the same as stateside. The folks at Subic haven't had any problems at all --- I think.
Step 7.....
Well, I think you get the point. Living abroad can sound (and be) quite an adventure. (I know, I lived outside the mainland for 13 1/2 yrs). But making those transoceanic moves can be difficult and very costly on both ends of the move (I know, I made 3 round trips under much, much more favorable move packages).
Simply put, while the MEC feels there are significant economic gains with this LOA you'll find when you go thru the process of actually planning and executing your move, and then living your daily life abroad, there are not.
With with what the company is offering very few folks will have any increase in their QOL.
If you honestly feel you'll have economic gains and an increased QOL under this LOA --- vote "Yes".
If not -- vote "No".
I think we all know where the truth, and the silent majority, reside.
Whoa DLax, becareful! BC might come down on you for actually getting people to put their money before their mad!
Great post!
08-01-2007, 12:39 PM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: 767 CA
Posts: 1,876
DLax, very well thought out questions to consider. I would just change your question about voting yes to "If you honestly feel you'll come out even in economic sense, and even in QOL under this LOA" -- vote "Yes"
I would find it hard to find very many who could answer yes to both.
I would find it hard to find very many who could answer yes to both.
08-01-2007, 05:20 PM
#7
New Hire
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 1
DLax85,
I believe that if you just changed Step 1. to read "Don't bid it", you could eliminate steps 2 through 7. Simplify, simplify!
The short term economic gains may not be there and, for numerous other factors, "it won't be for everybody"; but I'm focusing on that nasty little scope issue. The US market for FedEx is mature (i.e., no growth). That's a fact. All significant expansion will be overseas. Does it matter who flies the freight?
It's up to each of us to weigh the long term impact of this decision (vote). It's a pivotal point in FedEx expansion plans that could affect us in ways a lot more critical than private schools and baggage limits. If we go with the expert analysis of the regulars here on ALPC, we should roll the dice, vote NO, and see what happens when no one bids it. Or we can have a 'little' faith in our union process. I'm one of those who believe that we'll make a lot more headway at the negotiations table as a strong union than we will in a fractured free-for-all pi**ing contest. Even if scope is not strictly detailed in this sub-par LOA, we have a better chance of resolving it at the union level. Our negotiators proved that just last year. (I know, I know: 'But what have they done for us this year?!') Anyway, it's just business and, like it or not, we're just an expense item - even the best stick on the property. The truth is that if FedEx could figure out a way to make more money packing pork sausages, we'd all be out of our jobs - or - smelling alot like Jimmy Dean.
Either way, yes or no, I just hope that results turn out to be the best for ALL of us and OUR collective futures, regardless of seniority.
P.S. Just to save you a few keystrokes: Yes, it's my first post. No, I'm not a mgmt tool, a kool-aid drinker, not about to turn 60, ALPA lemming, etc., etc. Just a line pilot who's still thrilled to be at FedEx after more than 10 years.
I believe that if you just changed Step 1. to read "Don't bid it", you could eliminate steps 2 through 7. Simplify, simplify!
The short term economic gains may not be there and, for numerous other factors, "it won't be for everybody"; but I'm focusing on that nasty little scope issue. The US market for FedEx is mature (i.e., no growth). That's a fact. All significant expansion will be overseas. Does it matter who flies the freight?
It's up to each of us to weigh the long term impact of this decision (vote). It's a pivotal point in FedEx expansion plans that could affect us in ways a lot more critical than private schools and baggage limits. If we go with the expert analysis of the regulars here on ALPC, we should roll the dice, vote NO, and see what happens when no one bids it. Or we can have a 'little' faith in our union process. I'm one of those who believe that we'll make a lot more headway at the negotiations table as a strong union than we will in a fractured free-for-all pi**ing contest. Even if scope is not strictly detailed in this sub-par LOA, we have a better chance of resolving it at the union level. Our negotiators proved that just last year. (I know, I know: 'But what have they done for us this year?!') Anyway, it's just business and, like it or not, we're just an expense item - even the best stick on the property. The truth is that if FedEx could figure out a way to make more money packing pork sausages, we'd all be out of our jobs - or - smelling alot like Jimmy Dean.
Either way, yes or no, I just hope that results turn out to be the best for ALL of us and OUR collective futures, regardless of seniority.
P.S. Just to save you a few keystrokes: Yes, it's my first post. No, I'm not a mgmt tool, a kool-aid drinker, not about to turn 60, ALPA lemming, etc., etc. Just a line pilot who's still thrilled to be at FedEx after more than 10 years.
08-01-2007, 05:25 PM
#8
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Posts: 99
Hi, I'm Liftr, and I have been a lurker for some time...
I talked to a couple of senior pilots lately about their LOA vote.
They said " I am so senior, it will not affect me during the 3-5 years left, so I will probably go along with the Union."
To which I responsded " Are you enjoying your VEBA and retirement benefits I voted for last fall?"
"With the Age 65 rule coming, I now have 27 more years for this to affect me. Could I get you to consider voting as if it may affect you?"
"No hard sell, just look at it objectively and decide if you would want to live under these provisions."
I think that may be an effective tact to use with our disinterested group.
Second topic: Scope
If this LOA strengthens our Scope clause so much, when can I expect to read the news about FDX selling off Okay Airlines and Tradewinds?
I didn't think so.
I talked to a couple of senior pilots lately about their LOA vote.
They said " I am so senior, it will not affect me during the 3-5 years left, so I will probably go along with the Union."
To which I responsded " Are you enjoying your VEBA and retirement benefits I voted for last fall?"
"With the Age 65 rule coming, I now have 27 more years for this to affect me. Could I get you to consider voting as if it may affect you?"
"No hard sell, just look at it objectively and decide if you would want to live under these provisions."
I think that may be an effective tact to use with our disinterested group.
Second topic: Scope
If this LOA strengthens our Scope clause so much, when can I expect to read the news about FDX selling off Okay Airlines and Tradewinds?
I didn't think so.
08-01-2007, 06:01 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: A300 F/O
Posts: 217
BC's latest diatribe has compelled me to quit lurking and sign up for this forum. I am a pilot considering taking my family to HKG. It's funny how BC considers those who don't eat this sh$tburger LOA as malcontents. He sounds considerably low-self.
I want to move my family there but I won't do it just for the experience at a financial loss. My main concern is the schooling. No choice but private school-unlike the US.
I voted No and would go back and vote No again if I could just because BC offends me.
I want to move my family there but I won't do it just for the experience at a financial loss. My main concern is the schooling. No choice but private school-unlike the US.
I voted No and would go back and vote No again if I could just because BC offends me.
VOTE NO and DON'T BID IT!
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