Commute Protection Question
07-29-2007, 10:30 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: ANC-Based MD-11 FO
Posts: 328
If you are based in MEM and jumpseat into MEM, by CBA, your maximum duty day is 13+30 starting with the showtime for your jumpseat to your landing time at the end of your operating trip. You're correct that there's no FAR about it, you would however be violating our CBA which makes you vulnerable for disciplinary action. Since that section of the CBA only applies to MEM-based crews, that constraint does not affect SFS, LAX or ANC-based crews.
07-29-2007, 11:59 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 767 Cap
Posts: 1,306
I would ask him to call in fatigued, and if he wouldn't, would possibly seek other remedies.
07-30-2007, 12:28 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 426
CBA Section 26.J.2
J. Jumpseats
2. A pilot may use a Company staging jumpseat to position himself in Memphis for the start of his scheduled trip in accordance with the following:
a. The period beginning at scheduled showtime of a pilot’s inbound jumpseat and ending 30 minutes after the scheduled termination of his first duty period must be less than 13:30.
b. There must be at least 1:30 hours between the scheduled block-in of the inbound jumpseat and the showtime of the pilot’s trip.
c. A pilot positioning to Memphis on a Company jumpseat shall take proactive steps to be aware of any circumstance which could prevent his timely report to work (e.g., potential maintenance, weather or FAA delays,
reroutes). A pilot shall notify CRS at the first indication that a bump,
cancellation, reroute or delay of his inbound jumpseat may prevent him from checking in by his scheduled showtime.
d. If a pilot positioning to Memphis on a Company jumpseat consistent with the provisions of this paragraph cannot report by showtime due to bump, cancellation, reroute or delay of his inbound jumpseat, CRS may remove the pilot without pay. If a pilot is removed under this paragraph, he shall be eligible for make-up (and shall not be eligible for substitution). There is no discipline associated with the removal if the pilot followed the parameters described above.
e. The provisions of Section 26.J.2. are predicated upon the premise that time spent on a pilot scheduled Company jumpseat is not accrued duty time under this contract or the FAR’s. Should the Company be required to
consider time spent on a pilot scheduled Company jumpseat as accrued
duty time, Section 26.J.2., shall become null and void immediately.
FWIW, I have heard of a Captain being pulled from a trip. Not sure if this is an urban legend, but the particulars were he jumpseated in from DFW or AFW to MEM to fly to CDG.
2. A pilot may use a Company staging jumpseat to position himself in Memphis for the start of his scheduled trip in accordance with the following:
a. The period beginning at scheduled showtime of a pilot’s inbound jumpseat and ending 30 minutes after the scheduled termination of his first duty period must be less than 13:30.
b. There must be at least 1:30 hours between the scheduled block-in of the inbound jumpseat and the showtime of the pilot’s trip.
c. A pilot positioning to Memphis on a Company jumpseat shall take proactive steps to be aware of any circumstance which could prevent his timely report to work (e.g., potential maintenance, weather or FAA delays,
reroutes). A pilot shall notify CRS at the first indication that a bump,
cancellation, reroute or delay of his inbound jumpseat may prevent him from checking in by his scheduled showtime.
d. If a pilot positioning to Memphis on a Company jumpseat consistent with the provisions of this paragraph cannot report by showtime due to bump, cancellation, reroute or delay of his inbound jumpseat, CRS may remove the pilot without pay. If a pilot is removed under this paragraph, he shall be eligible for make-up (and shall not be eligible for substitution). There is no discipline associated with the removal if the pilot followed the parameters described above.
e. The provisions of Section 26.J.2. are predicated upon the premise that time spent on a pilot scheduled Company jumpseat is not accrued duty time under this contract or the FAR’s. Should the Company be required to
consider time spent on a pilot scheduled Company jumpseat as accrued
duty time, Section 26.J.2., shall become null and void immediately.
FWIW, I have heard of a Captain being pulled from a trip. Not sure if this is an urban legend, but the particulars were he jumpseated in from DFW or AFW to MEM to fly to CDG.
07-30-2007, 06:26 AM
#14
Bourgeoisie
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 787 SO
Posts: 617
From the CBA:
------------------------------------
"e. The provisions of Section 26.J.2. are predicated upon the premise that time spent on a pilot scheduled Company jumpseat is not accrued duty time under this contract or the FAR’s. Should the Company be required to consider time spent on a pilot scheduled Company jumpseat as accrued duty time, Section 26.J.2., shall become null and void immediately."
--------------------------------------
Lots of sermonized stuff getting thrown around. The 13+30 is a discipline issue ONLY if you miss your check in. It has nothing to do with duty. The company does not care (JL's epistle aside) until you bend metal. Guess what, the company does not care until you bend metal anyway!
What I do before I show has nothing to do with you or the work. Sorry but I'm never going to come to Memphis half a day early, only to stay awake anyway, even if it is a long trip. That being said, it is an INDIVIDUAL assessment as to your own fitness for work.
What's next, showing a day early for a trip? How about 2 days early?
As for the urban legends of people being removed, I would propose that it was another crewmember that complained before this occurred rather than the company doing it without provocation.
------------------------------------
"e. The provisions of Section 26.J.2. are predicated upon the premise that time spent on a pilot scheduled Company jumpseat is not accrued duty time under this contract or the FAR’s. Should the Company be required to consider time spent on a pilot scheduled Company jumpseat as accrued duty time, Section 26.J.2., shall become null and void immediately."
--------------------------------------
Lots of sermonized stuff getting thrown around. The 13+30 is a discipline issue ONLY if you miss your check in. It has nothing to do with duty. The company does not care (JL's epistle aside) until you bend metal. Guess what, the company does not care until you bend metal anyway!
What I do before I show has nothing to do with you or the work. Sorry but I'm never going to come to Memphis half a day early, only to stay awake anyway, even if it is a long trip. That being said, it is an INDIVIDUAL assessment as to your own fitness for work.
What's next, showing a day early for a trip? How about 2 days early?
As for the urban legends of people being removed, I would propose that it was another crewmember that complained before this occurred rather than the company doing it without provocation.
07-30-2007, 08:39 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 426
I just put out the CBA section, you decide how it will be utilized by the company.
This clause does have some protection, i.e., miss a trip while STAGING on FedEx and you will not receive a Crew Notification to contact your ACP and (hopefully) no letter in your personnel file.
I'll take that versus off-line and spending the entire day trying to get to Memphis through horrible hubs, screaming kids, rude people, delays, and mechanicals versus making sure I'm within the 13+30 staging time frame.
It is a personal choice.
This clause does have some protection, i.e., miss a trip while STAGING on FedEx and you will not receive a Crew Notification to contact your ACP and (hopefully) no letter in your personnel file.
I'll take that versus off-line and spending the entire day trying to get to Memphis through horrible hubs, screaming kids, rude people, delays, and mechanicals versus making sure I'm within the 13+30 staging time frame.
It is a personal choice.
07-30-2007, 10:57 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 767 Cap
Posts: 1,306
As quoted above:
"2. A pilot may use a Company staging jumpseat to position himself in Memphis for the start of his scheduled trip in accordance with the following:
a. The period beginning at scheduled showtime of a pilot’s inbound jumpseat and ending 30 minutes after the scheduled termination of his first duty period must be less than 13:30.
b. There must be at least 1:30 hours between the scheduled block-in of the inbound jumpseat and the showtime of the pilot’s trip."
That can be read to mean, if you want to use a company jumpseat while in a "legal rest period," you must follow those two rules. Failure to abide by both para a. and b. could be cause for discipline by Flt management, if they so desire.
07-30-2007, 12:24 PM
#18
Bourgeoisie
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 787 SO
Posts: 617
07-30-2007, 07:16 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 2,419
Ultimately, you have to show up at the trip folder and determine whether you are sufficiently rested to operate the trip.
I have done trips to Brazil with Capts that jumped in from the west coast and felt comfortable with their decision to fly---they slept the whole way in.
and flown with Capts who live in Memphis and wound up with very little rest and thought their decision was questionable.
but, if the dude isn't nodding off at the desk, not my call as to whether they are rested enough for the trip
I have done trips to Brazil with Capts that jumped in from the west coast and felt comfortable with their decision to fly---they slept the whole way in.
and flown with Capts who live in Memphis and wound up with very little rest and thought their decision was questionable.
but, if the dude isn't nodding off at the desk, not my call as to whether they are rested enough for the trip
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