heavyjetpilot

Sir, I am going to try and explain our position as simply as possible for you to understand. An Airline pilot is a professional career. We are not 9-5 bankers, accountants, laywers, doctors..etc. We are pilots. As such it takes many years to achieve the amount of qualified flight hours to even apply for this type of job. We are put through extensive training throughout our entire careers. Did you realize whenever UPS buys a new jet aircraft that we have to cram an entire systems manual into our heads in about 3 weeks of groundschool? Then there is approx. 3 weeks of simulator training just to be qualified to fly a new airplane. Do you have any clue as to how difficult this is? Most likely not. We are governed by the FAA and must pass a Class I or Class II physical to be able to do our job. A class I physical requires us to see a FAA governed doctor every 6 monts. After the age of 40 you are required to have a EKG done on your heart every year. One wrong heart beat and your career is over. Do you realize there are so many prescription and non-prescription drugs that we can't even take for such things as a common cold? I bet yoiu didn't know that. The Federal Government says we must retire at the age of 60. When are you required to retire? Back to the job itself. The vast majority of us are college educated. Many of us are post college graduates. Some of us are even Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants..etc. and still do this job because we love to fly airplanes. Lots of us are even Military Acadamy graduates. We are required to spend countless days away from our families every month. Flying to places all around the world. Possibly catching any types of diseases floating around. How about 9-11? I don't recall any package trucks being jacked and driven into the World Trade Center. Did you know some of us may even be packing a six shooter? I bet not. Where exactly do you have to travel and how often are you away from home? I certainly bet not as often as we are. Getting to the point of pay. Why shouldn't we be paid the salaries we are currently being paid? Noone has ever said that a package car driver shouldn't be paid a 6 figure salary. If you think you deserve it then bargin for it. If you are jealous of our salaries and lifestyles then go out and get get your flying licence and see how long it takes to make a 6 figure salary. Do you know it cost me nearly $50,000 for my pilot's licence just to get my first flying job paying only $11,000 the first year. I bet you didn't know that either. Hell, I want to be professional baseball player and be paid a 7 figure salary but I know how few ever make it that far. I certainly do not think a professional sports figure should ask for less. The team owners pay them what they are worth. Professional sports is just like an airline. If you want the best players on the field then it's going to cost you. UPS knows this but just doesn't want to step up to the plate yet. As for the airline industry being in a decline. SO WHAT!!! 16 years ago when I was hired the airlines were going strong but UPS could have cared less. They stated then that they could not compare us to the passenger airlines. Well now that has come back and bit them in the a$$. Just because the airlines are struggling now you can bet for sure because it has happened in the past, the salaries and pensions will increase again. Count on it. Now as for any of my IPA brothers and sisters who have treated you or any other driver with disrespect, I am sorry. There is no place for that in our profession. I go completely out of my way to be friendly with all personnel working around my aircraft. So please try and understand where we are coming from. UPS is a multi-billion dollar company and everyone deserves a piece of the pie. I would love it if you could truly walk a day or week in my shoes. Only then would you understand.
Respectfully,
CW

Soyathink

HeavyJetPilot,

If you look at my previous posts you will see that I stated my father was a commercial pilot. I do know about the first class medical, the mandatory retirement at age 60. The fatigue issues.The prescription and over the counter drugs you can't take. Even drugs for depression are not allowed without being grounded for I think 90 days after the end of the prescription and only with Dr.'s clearance. With the divorce rate and being away from family, depression is a real issue amongst pilots. I was able to see it first hand with the divorce of my parents. I am aware of the troubles around the world and dangers you face. A good freind of my fathers was blown up over Lockerbie Scotland. I also know that most if not all of you have loss of license insurance. Alot have a side business. I know how long and how much it costs to get a pilots license. I wanted to do that but I cannot due to a medical condition that will not let me pass my 1st class medical. You stated 16 years ago UPS could care less when airlines were going strong. 16 years ago was a different time. The airline was an infant at UPS. We have a trucking company that formed the fastest airline practically overnight. There were and still are a lot of growing pains. I admire and respect a lot of UPS Pilots. I have issues with those that continually bash the company and berate anybody working with the company that isn't a pilot. Many have issues with UPS but it's a shame they can't or don't want to work together to fix them. I have dealt with some very bad managers. A lot of it has to do with numbers. The pressure they are under is bad. They have no union, if they don't get the numbers they are transferred to somewhere they don't want to be or they are fired. When we add pressure to an already volitile situation it only gets worse. The working conditions for both sides suck. The things us ground guys don't understand is why did the IPA postpone negotiations for almost 2 years (thats is what we were told by the union) ? In the current climate the airline industry is in anything not pertaining to a cut in pay or a loss in pension is a good thing. What we have to remember is there is a lot more competition than before against UPS. Look at the inroads Fed Ex has made on the ground. UPS air business is not nearly growing as fast as Fed Ex ground. The IPA jeopardises that even more with the ads and contacting customers. This doesn't affect one person at UPS or just UPS management. It affects all of us teamsters. DHL was just a blip on the radar and they have grown and want UPS' business. Fed Ex drivers and DHL drivers have no unions. Fed Ex ground and DHL drivers are contractors. They have to pay for their benifits and fuel and equipment. UPS is at a disadvantage with this and these companies are nibbling away at our revenue. Then you have the USPS who gets all the Government perks of not paying taxes. How about fuel costs. I just read that Fuel has surpaseed payroll as the number one cost to the airline industry. How about healthcare. Healthcare costs and premiums are skyrocketing. We have a very good benifits package. Take all these factors plus more and then consider all the expansion UPS has done to grow business. This isn't cheap. Air hubs in Shanghai, 8 Boeing 744 freighters. The 60 some Airbus A300's. 10 A380's I could go on and on about that. Now think about this what do you do to prepare if you get into a tight situation. I hope you save some money. It isn't like there is one person who has UPS' profit stuffed under their mattress. It isn't one person buyin Ferraris and private jets jetsetting around the globe. Hell UPS doesn't even own a private jet and even the CEO doesn't travel by private jet. Have a look at Fed Ex though, they have a very nice fleet of them. There are quite a number of shareholders, Pilots, Drivers, Loaders, and management that own UPS. A lot of these people rely on us to do our jobs. I feel that you do derserve a raise and the quality of life issues should be fairly negotiated with both sides having emepathy for the other. I feel though a lot of issues have been brought upon yourselves with the Ads and contacting customers. A lot of people in UPS right now think the IPA is a "cancer". We feel you don't consider yourselves as UPSer's. We feel that you think you are better than us. We feel that you are trying to damage our jobs and livelihood with the ads and contacting the customers. It has to be tough getting support when you see alot of pilots out of work or making a fraction of what they did. Quite a few of us teamsters are having a tough time supporting you when we hear you are getting more money. Maybe if you start working together with the company and the company start working with you better then this would create a better work enviroment. Management and the ground guys might earn more respect for you. Your value in UPS would go up and probably your salaries will too. When you use the tactics that have been done that only creates a lose lose situation. If you could please post what you guys truly want in the contract. This would help us better understand. Trust me I would love to walk a day in the life in your shoes. That was my dream.

Thanks for your reply.

heavyjetpilot

Sir,
I greatly appreciate your educated response. Unfortunately, I can not pass along what we are asking for. That's between UPS and our NC. You can bet that we are not asking for anything more than our main competitor at FEDEX is offering or has been providing already. Why do you see us as doom and gloom? Sir, we have as a group tried for so many years to make a difference here with UPS but they (UPS) doesn't want or ask for our help. Like I stated in an earlier post UPS is the most profitable transportation business and thus we as an employee group deserve our share. You can sleep well at night knowing if UPS were losing money who would you suspect would have to give the most in concessions? I will give you two guesses. Bingo- Pilots. Instead of being the ultimate pessimist about UPS's future, your job, the Teamsters, The IPA and who ever, you should be looking at this as an optimist. I truly value my job as do all of the IPA brothers and sisters. All we want is to be paid and treated fairly according to our worth to this company(UPS). Not Delta, United, USAirways or who ever. Whatever the outcome is, you remember I walked the picket line for three weeks supporting your employee group. I never for once said why should I lose three weeks of pay for some trucker who makes over 6 figures. Yes there are many in your employee group who makes over the 6 figure mark. I think for someone who sleeps in his own bed every night, has a guarenteed set of days off each week, gets paid overtime and whatever else your perks are you drivers are doing extremely well. I do hope you will honor our picket line if it comes to that. Remember if you are a Union member your TURN WILL COME.

Respectfully

Soyathink

CW,

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Is the reason you cannot pass along the information due to the NC not informing the IPA pilots or the IPA not wanting it public knowledge?

Doesn't Fed Ex have 1300 more pilots than UPS? Doesn't Fed Ex profit and revenue come from mostly from air? I agree that INTL expansion is where it is at for the moment with UPS. You can't get the boxes here on a slow boat from China and keep your customers happy. The pilots are needed. The problem is the impression we have been getting from IPA spokepeople and these messageboards is that the pilots feel they are the most important part of UPS. UPS is the opposite of Fed Ex. UPS revenue and profit mostly comes from the ground. I'm not saying that one is more important than the other but we need eachother to survive. Without air we would not make as much and without ground we would not make as much. The answer to your doom and gloom question is the public ads in whe Wall Street Journal, USA Today and other publications around the entire planet. Then the IPA contacting the Fortune 4000 shippers. Informational picketing is fine. Letting the public know what the IPA is asking for is fine but when you contact customers and berate a company that we all rely on is wrong. It costs us boxes that support myself and my family right now. Those ads and surveys have hurt us. I can understand why you did it because us drivers see customers everyday. Nobody really ever sees the UPS pilot except for the driver of the hotel van. Teamsters have a better grass roots way of doing this than the IPA. The problem was it wasn't done in a positive way.

I agree with you that you do deserve your share and have heard that UPS has offered more money to the IPA. It seems that management has given the most concessions since the price of fuel has skyrocketed. I agree that pilots would have to give concessions if UPS started losing money. It would probably be furloughs and layoffs more than anything though. Hopefully that won't happen.

I don't know any feeder or package car drivers making six figures. I do know many that work over 48 hours per week humping packages weighing up to 150lbs up steps to 3rd floor apartments.

I appreciate you and other pilots walking the line with us for the two week strike. That was a strike that should not have happened and in all honesty it was the Teamster President (Carey) that caused that strike. We actually feel we got kinda screwed by Carey for that. Now I want to know was the reason you walked the line for us because Dispatch, and maint on strike? It has been stated here that without them planes would be hard to get off the ground. Was it because there were very few trucks running to get the boxes to the gateways? Was it because you really love us "truckers" and really wanted us to get paid. Was it because you used the Teamsters as a bargaining tool for your contract shortly after? A lot of us teamsters feel the IPA used us because there wasn't much to fly, very few to dispatch and hardly nobody to work on the aircraft anyhow. By walking you just strengthened you position with the company since a strike had already taken place.

Now as far as fixed scheduling. Don't you get to bid and know your sched. 56 days ahead of time? I agree it is nice sleeping in my bed everynight. As a pilot you know that will never happen. I hope you knew that when taking this profession.

What can the IPA do to grow business if they do strike and it gets settled? The strike in 97 hurt us bad. I mean us is because I work for UPS. UPS could have lost a lot of business to our competition. After the strike was settled us drivers were able to grow business at a phenominal rate. WE got back to and surpassed strike revenue within one quarter. What can the IPA do to make that happen if the IPA strikes?

All these issues are what we are worried about. I'm not posting this as flame bait. We just need the questions answered.

Thanks,

JJ

Soyathink

FreighterCapt,

Thanks for the link to the Press conference. This is what I needed. A lot of us on the ground just don't know whats going on and some of the posts on these messageboards are not helping either. I gained a lot of respect for Capt. Nicholson after the press conference. Very good press conference.

Thanks guys and sorry if I made some of you upset.

Brown Cow

It would be the end of the world for about 200 people at UPS if they wanted to put us on par with the majors. I once heard that American has 5 or 6 chief pilots for a fleet that is 3 times as big as Brown's. That means we would only need two cp's. It would be interesting to see 198 men and women wandering the street with a "I'll Fly for Food" t-shirt on.

As someone mentioned, apples to oranges.

Vito

SoYaThink,

I understand your post and you explain the plight of the average package car driver very well. I did note you stated you didn't know any driver who makes 6 figures, as well as how hard it is working the long hours, and carrying 150 lb loads up flights of stairs. No doubt about it You guys work very hard! and you have my respect. I draw the line at salary envy, and the perception that the IPA is not part of the UPS team.
First concerning salaries, I live in the Northeast, very close to NY, and almost everybody in this area has to make 6 figures just to live here, I know alot of high school burn-outs who got jobs on wall street and make very high 6-figures for what???trading securities??? tough job!!! Try landing a jet on an aircraft carrier at night, or hooking up with a KC-135 for an in-flight refueling!! I did these kind of things, and still do as a reservists, and I do it for alot less than what drivers make...alot less...I'm a damn hero! and so are most of my fellow pilots...after 9-11 we lost a few years of UPS pay to defend our nation..I'm the guy You go and watch in awe as I rip a jet across the wild blue yonder at the local airshow...I'm the guy who passed all the checkrides and tests just to get my wings....My class started with 67 pilots and we graduated 17!! (military) In the IPA we have guys who were POW's in Nam, Blue Angels and Thunderbirds, Guys who flew F-15's in the first wave during Desert Storm, and Stealth Fighter pilots! When You were sitting in your warm bed on those cold January nights back in 1991 You were proud of me and my fellow Airman, and we were doing all of that for about $40,000 a year on average!!!
It took me 10 years of that kind of flying to even qualify for my job at UPS, and then I have to hear people disparage me for finally reaching a level of pay commensurate with my SKILL. My brother-in-law is a lawyer and makes way more than I ever will, ditto for my cousin the doctor. If I make a mistake people, sometimes many..hundreds in the case of a passsenger carrier...will die, thats DIE!!!! yet my brother in law can screw up a case and nobody gets hurt, my doctor cousin at worst may cause one death...and we all know stockbrokers can screw up all day long and still walk away with way more than I ever can in a year!
Just a little glimpse into my world, in another hour I will have to study for a threat simulator tomorrow at my reserve unit, where I will learn how to avoid Surface to Air missiles, small arms fire and anti-aircraft artillery...and soon its off to the deserts where I will put my life on the line for the 5th time in 20 years so other people can tell me I'm not worth what I get paid!
Have a happy Thanksgiving and pray for the troops away from home1
Vito

FreeCruiser

> The things us ground guys don't understand is why did the IPA postpone negotiations for almost 2 years (thats is what we were told by the union) ? <

Soyathink,
Two years? Wonder where they got that number? While there was a break while we transitioned to a new president and negotiating committee, it was not any two years. Moreover, that does not excuse the company - it could have used the break to work on their own offer. Oh, that's right, the Most Admired Company (not one of the best companies to work for, remmember?) didn't do that. In statements that anyone can look up, UPS consistently said it, "hoped to continue talks." They meant that exactly. Not reach agreement, just talk. Only when this was pointedly noted, did the company alter that statement.

So you are not a manager? And you have heard some of the line pilots say disparaging things about drivers and/or package handlers? Could you provide examples with date and place? Names would be great too. Does your union have a Professional Standards Committee? If so, they can certainly find our union and same committee, and they should in any such incident.

Fraternally,
FreeCruiser

Deuce130

Perhaps the worst defense of pilot salaries I have ever read. You sound like a whiny baby. Being a pilot isn't that hard. Becoming a pilot has its challenges, sure, but all of the things you cite in your post aren't that bad. You wasted a lot of time typing that up, dude.

Deuce130

[QUOTE=Vito]

I...I'm a damn hero! [QUOTE]

Most heroes I know don't have to tell everyone that they're heroes. But, thanks for clearing that up! You're a hero!