LOA Absolutes
07-07-2007, 07:30 AM
#91
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Michael Vick's favorite animal
Posts: 267
Folks -- The following is an email response from one FDX pilot who had been asked about the cost-of-living situation when he lived in HKG prior to joining FDX. Because the writer is rather junior, he's reticent about speaking up. I'm respecting his wish to stay below the ridge-line by not using his name. Please forgive me if you see this post on a couple more threads -- this info is critical, and should be seen by as many pilots as possible.
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 19:07:58 -0700
>Hi Mike,
>
>Thanks for the info. I couldn't agree more.
>
>My wife and I lived in Hong Kong in a previous life in the mid 90's. I was with [a major brokerage house] and our housing at that time was about US$9,000 per month for an apartment in Repulse Bay. It was about 2,300 square feet and pretty nice, but in a older building, on a lower floor, with wall unit A/C that barely kept it cool. I would think that same apartment is much more now. I had one of the lower housing allowances for expats -- as I recall, some other guys were getting up to twice that amount.
>
>[The brokerage firm] paid for housing, and a lot more, too. They covered schooling, family trips home to the states, all moving expenses, medical/dental, storage for stuff we left in the States, and probably a lot more that I've forgotten.
>
>The other thing people need to remember is how quickly the real estate market changes in Hong Kong. It goes up and down very quickly. I read that right now it is going up at about 20% per year. That happened to us -- by the time we arrived in Hong Kong, the housing allowance we had agreed to was way behind where the market was. Fortunately, the company eventually agreed to raise the number.
>
>I have been following the rumors/announcements on this issue, since we would really like to have the chance to get overseas while our kids are still young. I was going to email Dave Webb, but after seeing the response to that other guy who is even senior to me, I'm not so sure.
>
>Enjoy the rest of your vacation.
>
>Cheers,
> [name withheld by Herkybird]
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 19:07:58 -0700
>Hi Mike,
>
>Thanks for the info. I couldn't agree more.
>
>My wife and I lived in Hong Kong in a previous life in the mid 90's. I was with [a major brokerage house] and our housing at that time was about US$9,000 per month for an apartment in Repulse Bay. It was about 2,300 square feet and pretty nice, but in a older building, on a lower floor, with wall unit A/C that barely kept it cool. I would think that same apartment is much more now. I had one of the lower housing allowances for expats -- as I recall, some other guys were getting up to twice that amount.
>
>[The brokerage firm] paid for housing, and a lot more, too. They covered schooling, family trips home to the states, all moving expenses, medical/dental, storage for stuff we left in the States, and probably a lot more that I've forgotten.
>
>The other thing people need to remember is how quickly the real estate market changes in Hong Kong. It goes up and down very quickly. I read that right now it is going up at about 20% per year. That happened to us -- by the time we arrived in Hong Kong, the housing allowance we had agreed to was way behind where the market was. Fortunately, the company eventually agreed to raise the number.
>
>I have been following the rumors/announcements on this issue, since we would really like to have the chance to get overseas while our kids are still young. I was going to email Dave Webb, but after seeing the response to that other guy who is even senior to me, I'm not so sure.
>
>Enjoy the rest of your vacation.
>
>Cheers,
> [name withheld by Herkybird]
Folks,
Here is the deal. The company is being very honest. Can't blaim them for trying. According to the FCIF - "to give families the opportunity to experience the culture in Hong Kong and Paris". That's why there is only $2700 included in the package. They want you to LIVE like you are Chinese. You will be living in a dirt floor hut eating squid scrotum. You'll only have enough money to ride bikes to the local STD clinic, and there will local medicine man doctors with the finest ground bear heart for your medicinal needs. Or perhaps your latrine will be "rue de st. michelle, behind a parked car".
Now I ask you this. In the pilot group's ENTIRE history, when have we ever collectively got together and said "NO". It's time.
07-07-2007, 05:53 PM
#92
Proponent of Hysteria
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: "Part of the problem." : JL
Posts: 1,057
Guys:
I think most people here (on this forum) agree on a couple of key points:
1. This LOA is far, far substandard to any other company's Pilot (let alone executive) Ex-Pat Package.
2. The Company can definitely afford a better package.
3. Of the much touted " Hooray guys, $ 40,000 per year extra for each pilot!", absolutely NONE of it will end up in the pilot's pocket because of taking away the Ex-Pat tax exemption, as well as having to spend a huge amount out-of-pocket for rent. In fact, it will be both a real and perceived pay CUT for the pilot. And again, this is for RENT. The individual pilot will end up with equity in absolutely nothing. How many FedEX pilots state-side rent an apartment vs owning a home??
4. By omitting tuition coverage, FedEX, the "family orientated company that it is", has COMPLETELY excluded anyone with a school age child from bidding an FDA, both present and future FDA's
5. In the years to come, this LOA will affect FAR more than the approx. 160 pilots (80 in HKG, 80 in CDG), as FedEX continues a huge portion of its growth overseas. You think these bases won't get any bigger? You think these will be the only 2 FDA's? We need to set a legit precedent.
6. The argument, "we need to pass this because if we turn it down, they will just run a bid anyway..." is completely invalid. Let 'em, see what happens. The MEC wants you to think that, so they don't look bad by presenting a substandard package to the voters that gets turned down. They really want this to pass, too much talk about recalls going on....
The people who read these boards are only a very small percentage of our pilot group. This information is not reaching the masses of eligible voters. There was an MD-11 Captain here in Subic on a layover who said he was not going to vote at all because this LOA would not affect him. Ridiculous.
Please guys, spread the word among the rest of the pilot group. Use emails, word of mouth, whatever you can.
I think most people here (on this forum) agree on a couple of key points:
1. This LOA is far, far substandard to any other company's Pilot (let alone executive) Ex-Pat Package.
2. The Company can definitely afford a better package.
3. Of the much touted " Hooray guys, $ 40,000 per year extra for each pilot!", absolutely NONE of it will end up in the pilot's pocket because of taking away the Ex-Pat tax exemption, as well as having to spend a huge amount out-of-pocket for rent. In fact, it will be both a real and perceived pay CUT for the pilot. And again, this is for RENT. The individual pilot will end up with equity in absolutely nothing. How many FedEX pilots state-side rent an apartment vs owning a home??
4. By omitting tuition coverage, FedEX, the "family orientated company that it is", has COMPLETELY excluded anyone with a school age child from bidding an FDA, both present and future FDA's
5. In the years to come, this LOA will affect FAR more than the approx. 160 pilots (80 in HKG, 80 in CDG), as FedEX continues a huge portion of its growth overseas. You think these bases won't get any bigger? You think these will be the only 2 FDA's? We need to set a legit precedent.
6. The argument, "we need to pass this because if we turn it down, they will just run a bid anyway..." is completely invalid. Let 'em, see what happens. The MEC wants you to think that, so they don't look bad by presenting a substandard package to the voters that gets turned down. They really want this to pass, too much talk about recalls going on....
The people who read these boards are only a very small percentage of our pilot group. This information is not reaching the masses of eligible voters. There was an MD-11 Captain here in Subic on a layover who said he was not going to vote at all because this LOA would not affect him. Ridiculous.
Please guys, spread the word among the rest of the pilot group. Use emails, word of mouth, whatever you can.
07-07-2007, 06:21 PM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 767 Cap
Posts: 1,306
BTW I am voting no, based on the rest of the LOA.
07-07-2007, 08:03 PM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,409
Say what? Did not see anything about that in the LOA. Tax equalization has little to do with the overseas exemption. It's about reimbursement for paying foreign taxes, which you will in either China or France. It's one of the few good parts of the LOA.
BTW I am voting no, based on the rest of the LOA.
BTW I am voting no, based on the rest of the LOA.
07-07-2007, 08:42 PM
#96
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 178
Well, Germantown is one of the most expensive places to live in MEM, and plenty of FDX pilots think that's what they deserve. We're not even asking to meet that standard of living. But how many of you MEM-based pilots would even CONSIDER living in Whitehaven, where the rents are so much more affordable? NOT ONE OF YOU is willing to live with the po' folks near Graceland, but you seem to think the SFS folks must be gettin' uppity to want a decent standard of living for ourselves. Think of it in those terms. Just because AN apartment CAN be found for what the company wants to pay doesn't mean it's any kind of place you'd consider living or bringing a wife and family. You're not willing to live in a $250/mo. apartment in MEM (and for good reasons), so there's no reason we should live in equivalent squalor. Just because you might be able to see the water from your window doesn't mean it's the kind of place where visiting Hollywood stars would like to hang out.
07-07-2007, 09:00 PM
#97
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 767 Cap
Posts: 1,306
While I intend to vote no based on the entire package, I hate when someone starts making things up to bolster their case. Tax equalization is a good thing, one of the few in the LOA.
Last edited by fdx727pilot; 07-07-2007 at 09:09 PM.
07-09-2007, 07:58 AM
#98
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: A Big One
Posts: 283
07-09-2007, 10:03 AM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Actually, without equalization, at least in France, you'll pay a whole lot more in taxes, even with your foreign exemption. It's not a credit. FDX can't take it. It's an exemption of the first $82400 of income (I believe that's the latest figure.) So you don't pay tax on that sum. You do pay US tax on all the rest at at least 33%, and French tax on everything. It works out to a whole lot more than US tax if you'd stayed. The only time that exemption is a great deal is if the foreign government agrees to collect no tax, like in SFS. That won't be the case in HKG or CDG. European taxes are the pits. That's the way equalization worked at Panam for the Berlin based pilots.
While I intend to vote no based on the entire package, I hate when someone starts making things up to bolster their case. Tax equalization is a good thing, one of the few in the LOA.
While I intend to vote no based on the entire package, I hate when someone starts making things up to bolster their case. Tax equalization is a good thing, one of the few in the LOA.
XXXXXXXXEstimated Tax Equalization Benefit
PayXXXXXXXXXXHKXXXXXXXXXXXCDG
100K
150K
200K
250K
300K
And am being equalized before or after they give me the cola and seed money?
07-09-2007, 12:48 PM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 329
Well, while I'm voting no on this deal, I have to disagree with you on this point. I think the company could staff every FO seat and at least all the CDG Capt seats from off the street (Airbus 300/310 typed guys are harder to come by.) When we vote this down, the company will only come back with a better deal if the really want experienced FDX people in the seats. But a turd by any other name is still a turd, so I vote NO.
Say all you want, I don't see guys who meet our mins flocking in droves to go live over there for $57/hour the first year and $108/hour after that as F/Os with a three year obligation. Add in French taxes and the cost of the Euro, this is a real stinker for a new hire F/O. HKG is worse for both seats.
STV, even though it's only for the first two years, YGTBFKM...
I've read a TON of posts from people who acknowledge this is a flaming bag of dog doo, but who claim concern about those who might bid these positions if this LOA is shot down. If they go in with their eyes open, they deserve what they get. I for one feel no obligation to bend over (STV, substandard comp, no peg to local currency or COLA) so someone who might bid this will get a marginally better deal...
If this LOA is shot down, SIBA would be the most likely result and that's good for us and good for the company. We get SIBA flying which is good and the company gets senior talent to bid these lines. At worst they hire off the street a bunch of people who will always be junior to us. I fail to see the bad.
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