Alpa Fdx
05-18-2007, 10:07 AM
#681
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
Redeye,
No arguments that this is probably a done deal. But, if we really want to "do the right thing" ----We should fight this until the end. That shows a consistant position that the vast majority of ALPA membership supports. Most of the membership would be pleased that ALPA did the right thing by fighting this. To flip flop positions, and then throw salt in the wound by supporting retroactively bringing the old guys back is ridiculous.
The upside of holding the line is that it keeps us united. The down side is that we (or FedEx) face possible legal battles with the old codgers who want to "fly till they die." That's where the Euthanasia legislation comes in. It could be the "ultimate solution." Hypoxia could be the method of choice----quick and painless.
Excuse the sarcasm---I'm trying to keep a sense of humor here.
No arguments that this is probably a done deal. But, if we really want to "do the right thing" ----We should fight this until the end. That shows a consistant position that the vast majority of ALPA membership supports. Most of the membership would be pleased that ALPA did the right thing by fighting this. To flip flop positions, and then throw salt in the wound by supporting retroactively bringing the old guys back is ridiculous.
The upside of holding the line is that it keeps us united. The down side is that we (or FedEx) face possible legal battles with the old codgers who want to "fly till they die." That's where the Euthanasia legislation comes in. It could be the "ultimate solution." Hypoxia could be the method of choice----quick and painless.
Excuse the sarcasm---I'm trying to keep a sense of humor here.
Jolly
Would you agree that we have more fights coming?
Open Skies issues. since open skies with the EU is done the next logical ASIA (China is looming). Canada, Mexico and South Ameirca could be next,
I keep harping on License Harmoniization (especailly emerging countires) as the single biggest threat to our careers.
From strictly a business Standpoint..........................and let us say it is your call and yours alone.
Knowing that Bush already ageed that over 65 pilots can already fly in the US (they just have to be Foreign Pilots)As the Big Kahuna............................
.................................................. ..................................................
Would you expend all your PAC money and call in EVERYONE of your Political
favors to try to stop AGE 65 from Happening?
If your Answer is yes, what is your plan and how do you plan to fund it, for the future fights (which ARE coming very soon my friend)
Remember you just used up all your politicial capitol and favors becaus eyou have NO money left over to buy Access to Senators or Congressmen, not to mention credibility on the hill because they have already told us we are wasting our time trying to stop a change on AGE 60.
** Cabotage rights Allowing Foreign owned Carriers to fly Intra US for revenue
** Pension Reforms.......Raising IRS Caps on B Funds and PBGC legislation
** Open Skies We already gave away the EU is ASIA nest
** License Harmonization allowing a Chinese, Indian or Eastern EU Bloc Pilot to fly in the US.
You have limited resources
This is your Call............What do you do?
05-18-2007, 10:15 AM
#682
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 318
No I would not
Jolly
Would you agree that we have more fights coming?
Open Skies issues. since open skies with the EU is done the next logical ASIA (China is looming). Canada, Mexico and South Ameirca could be next,
I keep harping on License Harmoniization (especailly emerging countires) as the single biggest threat to our careers.
From strictly a business Standpoint..........................and let us say it is your call and yours alone.
Knowing that Bush already ageed that over 65 pilots can already fly in the US (they just have to be Foreign Pilots)As the Big Kahuna............................
.................................................. ..................................................
Would you expend all your PAC money and call in EVERYONE of your Political
favors to try to stop AGE 65 from Happening?
If your Answer is yes, what is your plan and how do you plan to fund it, for the future fights (which ARE coming very soon my friend)
Remember you just used up all your politicial capitol and favors becaus eyou have NO money left over to buy Access to Senators or Congressmen, not to mention credibility on the hill because they have already told us we are wasting our time trying to stop a change on AGE 60.
** Cabotage rights Allowing Foreign owned Carriers to fly Intra US for revenue
** Pension Reforms.......Raising IRS Caps on B Funds and PBGC legislation
** Open Skies We already gave away the EU is ASIA nest
** License Harmonization allowing a Chinese, Indian or Eastern EU Bloc Pilot to fly in the US.
You have limited resources
This is your Call............What do you do?
Would you agree that we have more fights coming?
Open Skies issues. since open skies with the EU is done the next logical ASIA (China is looming). Canada, Mexico and South Ameirca could be next,
I keep harping on License Harmoniization (especailly emerging countires) as the single biggest threat to our careers.
From strictly a business Standpoint..........................and let us say it is your call and yours alone.
Knowing that Bush already ageed that over 65 pilots can already fly in the US (they just have to be Foreign Pilots)As the Big Kahuna............................
.................................................. ..................................................
Would you expend all your PAC money and call in EVERYONE of your Political
favors to try to stop AGE 65 from Happening?
If your Answer is yes, what is your plan and how do you plan to fund it, for the future fights (which ARE coming very soon my friend)
Remember you just used up all your politicial capitol and favors becaus eyou have NO money left over to buy Access to Senators or Congressmen, not to mention credibility on the hill because they have already told us we are wasting our time trying to stop a change on AGE 60.
** Cabotage rights Allowing Foreign owned Carriers to fly Intra US for revenue
** Pension Reforms.......Raising IRS Caps on B Funds and PBGC legislation
** Open Skies We already gave away the EU is ASIA nest
** License Harmonization allowing a Chinese, Indian or Eastern EU Bloc Pilot to fly in the US.
You have limited resources
This is your Call............What do you do?
All valid points. I would not waste any money fighting the Age-65 legislation because it probably is a done deal. But I would not change my positon to try and "limit the damage." The damage is done already, but let's keep our official position that flying past 60 is a bad idea. That keeps our position consistant, and when s--t happens after this thing goes thru we can say I told you so. We are going to now waste those same resources changing our postion to "fly till we die" in order to influence the process. We are all mostly on the same page here, we just don't see eye to eye on how to deal with this.
05-18-2007, 10:16 AM
#683
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: FedEx Capt
Posts: 292
Yes it is.......no one is arguing that it won't. (with the exception of the B- Fund)
You seem to think there is a chance in H*LL in stopping what has already been decided.
My point is that we had our chance and we successfully fought it off for this long........but we have lost the battle on AGE 60. Do you really think otherwise?
You seem to think there is a chance in H*LL in stopping what has already been decided.
My point is that we had our chance and we successfully fought it off for this long........but we have lost the battle on AGE 60. Do you really think otherwise?
05-18-2007, 10:40 AM
#684
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
Redeye,
All valid points. I would not waste any money fighting the Age-65 legislation because it probably is a done deal. But I would not change my positon to try and "limit the damage." The damage is done already, but let's keep our official position that flying past 60 is a bad idea. That keeps our position consistant, and when s--t happens after this thing goes thru we can say I told you so. We are going to now waste those same resources changing our postion to "fly till we die" in order to influence the process. We are all mostly on the same page here, we just don't see eye to eye on how to deal with this.
All valid points. I would not waste any money fighting the Age-65 legislation because it probably is a done deal. But I would not change my positon to try and "limit the damage." The damage is done already, but let's keep our official position that flying past 60 is a bad idea. That keeps our position consistant, and when s--t happens after this thing goes thru we can say I told you so. We are going to now waste those same resources changing our postion to "fly till we die" in order to influence the process. We are all mostly on the same page here, we just don't see eye to eye on how to deal with this.
Even if the FedEx MEC changes its mind and votes to keep fighting any change to AGE 60, the remainder of the MEC's will not (IMHO) and thus the Position of ALPA will still change to stop opposing.
As to the Damage already beiing done..................
While the Age Change is done (or more accurately will be done shortly)
What has yet to be determined, is how it will implemented...........Many folks on this forum seem to that has already been determined, but in talking with my Block rep and DW not everything is yet cast in stone.
Medical Standards
Disabilitity issues
Potential IRS tax law changes
And yes........retroactivity for currently employed over 60 pilots all all issues which are not yet in concrete.
ALPA leadership (according to my block rep and a phone call to the MEC Chair) has said that in order to have any valubale input to the changes above, ALPA must no longer oppose the change, in other words they must change their opinion.............
Political extortion ?? Yeap Maybe but That is apparently how things are done in Washington, You Pay to play or you make deals where you can when you can or you have gets demands placed on you by your constituents when they have the power to do so. In this case ALPA has lost any and all support from their Allies to Oppose changes to AGE 60 and thus have little political pull on this issue.
So they must yield to the Laws of politics.
We will need a few favors down the road.
If ALPA as a whole doesn't vote to fight for this, it doesn't matter what the FDX MEC proposed anyway. By majority rule, ALPA will proceed.
I understand the anger vented from the general membership of the FedEx pilots.
This was sprung on us rather quickly and without much chance for input............which is really the brunt of the complaints on this forum. I think the MEC got that message loud and clear.
They have tried to explain their actions. In any event we will all know more next week when the ALPA Exectuive Board meeting concludes.
Last edited by RedeyeAV8r; 05-18-2007 at 10:50 AM.
05-18-2007, 10:52 AM
#685
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
Look I agree with your sentiment. I am one of you, I am on your Side.
The reality of the situation is that YOU and the REST of US had our opportunity to fight this issue for the past several years.
ALPA has had the "Action Alerts" links on their website forever asking
us to email their Senators and congressmen concerning AGE 60.
How many of us actually took the time to write your leaders over and over?They ask for donations to the PAC.
ALPA only barely raises1,000,000 in PAC donations each year from 65,000 members. a whopping $15 per member. Maybe you donate $500 each year and good on you for doing so. I am willing to bet most out there just said" Let ALPA handle it" and probably those same folks didn't give a dime to the PAC...........because they are cheap or used the excuse that ALPA tends to support Democrats..........
What your ALPA leaders are telling is is that this fight is over. Now all that is left to fight about is how it is implemented. But the FIGHT over the Change in AGE is done my friend. I don't like it, you don't have to like it, but thinking we have any shot at stopping it is..............futile.
The current Adminsistration cut a deal with the EU on Open SKies.
That is a done DEAL.........do you want to fight it Now, WHERE WERE YOU 5 years ago when ALPA said Hey this is coming?
If you want to FIGHT, good on you, there are be many fights looming.
License Harmonization and cabotage is the next one, what are you and the rest of us going to do about it? These are fights that have yet to be decided.
The reality of the situation is that YOU and the REST of US had our opportunity to fight this issue for the past several years.
ALPA has had the "Action Alerts" links on their website forever asking
us to email their Senators and congressmen concerning AGE 60.
How many of us actually took the time to write your leaders over and over?They ask for donations to the PAC.
ALPA only barely raises1,000,000 in PAC donations each year from 65,000 members. a whopping $15 per member. Maybe you donate $500 each year and good on you for doing so. I am willing to bet most out there just said" Let ALPA handle it" and probably those same folks didn't give a dime to the PAC...........because they are cheap or used the excuse that ALPA tends to support Democrats..........
What your ALPA leaders are telling is is that this fight is over. Now all that is left to fight about is how it is implemented. But the FIGHT over the Change in AGE is done my friend. I don't like it, you don't have to like it, but thinking we have any shot at stopping it is..............futile.
The current Adminsistration cut a deal with the EU on Open SKies.
That is a done DEAL.........do you want to fight it Now, WHERE WERE YOU 5 years ago when ALPA said Hey this is coming?
If you want to FIGHT, good on you, there are be many fights looming.
License Harmonization and cabotage is the next one, what are you and the rest of us going to do about it? These are fights that have yet to be decided.
But, my earlier point was...Who is going to try and stop any of the upcoming battles? Who cares about cabotage? Licence harmonization? I would argue that U.S. pilots are the only ones that care. And, who is going to listen to us then? And why should they?
Money? We're easily outspent. As you pointed out.
Fear of reprisal? We don't act like a labor union. We're proving that. To have any effect on upcoming legislation...We're having to roll over when the battle seems lost. What would make anyone think we won't do the same, in the future?
Respect? Now we're going to fight any higher medical standards for over age 60 guys. When we've cried "safety", for our stance on age 60 for over 40 years!
We don't have a leg to stand on.
If we are to have any chance of success in the future...We need real leadership. Leaders that can educate and motivate the members. We don't have that now. Our local FDX leaders can't even get the members to stop voluntarily flying DP's!!! Now, there's some leadership.
It's pitiful!
Would I do a better job? No, I don't think so. But, don't anyone tell me what a great job our leadership is doing. Local or Natl.
05-18-2007, 11:09 AM
#686
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,931
Jolly
Would you agree that we have more fights coming?
** Cabotage rights Allowing Foreign owned Carriers to fly Intra US for revenue
** Pension Reforms.......Raising IRS Caps on B Funds and PBGC legislation
** Open Skies We already gave away the EU is ASIA nest
** License Harmonization allowing a Chinese, Indian or Eastern EU Bloc Pilot to fly in the US.
You have limited resources
This is your Call............What do you do?
Would you agree that we have more fights coming?
** Cabotage rights Allowing Foreign owned Carriers to fly Intra US for revenue
** Pension Reforms.......Raising IRS Caps on B Funds and PBGC legislation
** Open Skies We already gave away the EU is ASIA nest
** License Harmonization allowing a Chinese, Indian or Eastern EU Bloc Pilot to fly in the US.
You have limited resources
This is your Call............What do you do?
I wouldn't spend a dime, a minute or ounce of energy on changing legislation or FAA rule making to include Retroactivity.
05-18-2007, 11:52 AM
#687
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: unskilled laborer
Posts: 353
I am not in the room when any of this is going on, so I can obviously only speak in general terms. BUT--
There is no truth to the concept that opponents of legislation cannot influence the wording of legislation.
(**NOT SAYING ALPA CAN INLUENCE AGE 60** NOT SAYING ALPA LOBBYISTS ARE NOT BEING TOLD TO CHANGE OUR POSITION**)
Caveats aside, we all can search our memory banks for legislation that we are familiar with where this has happened. This is why a bills wording so often do not reflect the name on the bill. Opponents lobby to have all their little exemptions and such tacked on to the point where the bill is destroyed.
Sometimes you end up with legislators who "voted for it before they voted against it"
.
I know someone who works in this line of work who gave me an example of what he referred to as a "hostile amendment." Imagine a consumer advocate bill that a retailer would be against, but for obvious reasons all of the Senators need to say they voted YES. So, the retailers find a Senator to have the bill amended such that the funding for the new program in the bill is removed (by removing a fee that the retailers were objecting to having to pay- The fee paid for the program). All the Senators vote Yes anyway, even though they can see the implementation has been destroyed by the amendment, but they still can't be a NO vote. Thus the person opposed to the original bill has influenced the final legislation. HAPPENS EVERY DAY!! I just gave you one real example.
Of course, I am not saying the political will exists to stop this. I am not saying it would be right or wrong to do so. But we can put away the idea that someone with enough muscle cannot influence a bill they oppose. ALPA is just telling (me anyway) that we don't have enough muscle!
There is no truth to the concept that opponents of legislation cannot influence the wording of legislation.
(**NOT SAYING ALPA CAN INLUENCE AGE 60** NOT SAYING ALPA LOBBYISTS ARE NOT BEING TOLD TO CHANGE OUR POSITION**)
Caveats aside, we all can search our memory banks for legislation that we are familiar with where this has happened. This is why a bills wording so often do not reflect the name on the bill. Opponents lobby to have all their little exemptions and such tacked on to the point where the bill is destroyed.
Sometimes you end up with legislators who "voted for it before they voted against it"
.I know someone who works in this line of work who gave me an example of what he referred to as a "hostile amendment." Imagine a consumer advocate bill that a retailer would be against, but for obvious reasons all of the Senators need to say they voted YES. So, the retailers find a Senator to have the bill amended such that the funding for the new program in the bill is removed (by removing a fee that the retailers were objecting to having to pay- The fee paid for the program). All the Senators vote Yes anyway, even though they can see the implementation has been destroyed by the amendment, but they still can't be a NO vote. Thus the person opposed to the original bill has influenced the final legislation. HAPPENS EVERY DAY!! I just gave you one real example.
Of course, I am not saying the political will exists to stop this. I am not saying it would be right or wrong to do so. But we can put away the idea that someone with enough muscle cannot influence a bill they oppose. ALPA is just telling (me anyway) that we don't have enough muscle!
05-18-2007, 12:38 PM
#688
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
But, my earlier point was...Who is going to try and stop any of the upcoming battles? Who cares about cabotage? Licence harmonization? I would argue that U.S. pilots are the only ones that care. And, who is going to listen to us then? And why should they?
Money? We're easily outspent. As you pointed out.
Fear of reprisal? We don't act like a labor union. We're proving that. To have any effect on upcoming legislation...We're having to roll over when the battle seems lost. What would make anyone think we won't do the same, in the future?
Respect? Now we're going to fight any higher medical standards for over age 60 guys. When we've cried "safety", for our stance on age 60 for over 40 years!
We don't have a leg to stand on.
If we are to have any chance of success in the future...We need real leadership. Leaders that can educate and motivate the members. We don't have that now. Our local FDX leaders can't even get the members to stop voluntarily flying DP's!!! Now, there's some leadership.
It's pitiful!
Would I do a better job? No, I don't think so. But, don't anyone tell me what a great job our leadership is doing. Local or Natl.
Money? We're easily outspent. As you pointed out.
Fear of reprisal? We don't act like a labor union. We're proving that. To have any effect on upcoming legislation...We're having to roll over when the battle seems lost. What would make anyone think we won't do the same, in the future?
Respect? Now we're going to fight any higher medical standards for over age 60 guys. When we've cried "safety", for our stance on age 60 for over 40 years!
We don't have a leg to stand on.
If we are to have any chance of success in the future...We need real leadership. Leaders that can educate and motivate the members. We don't have that now. Our local FDX leaders can't even get the members to stop voluntarily flying DP's!!! Now, there's some leadership.
It's pitiful!
Would I do a better job? No, I don't think so. But, don't anyone tell me what a great job our leadership is doing. Local or Natl.
Bus
You bring up many valid points, but it is easy to say our leaders our weak because it they are the closest point to us.
I don't worship the Ground Prater or ol Duane walks on, nor do I say
"I am not worthy" when Webb, Huggins, Baker or any of the FedExMEC walks into he room. That being said, I don't think these guys are the brunt of the problem either.........
The have done a decent job from where I sit
I don't always agree with their views but I can't complain with much of their work.
You say we don't act like a labor UNION? I am assuming ALPA National?? or just FedEX ALPA??
What would you have ALPA President do right now?
What would you have DW do? as you pointed out we can't even stop our Pilots from flying disputed pairings. If you can't get them from stopping something so easy, How would you get them to do something more risky to their Job......
Whether your a GOP supporter or not, The BUSH Administration has nuetered labor. We can't strike anymore, his Appointed Judges have seen to that, so now they can void contracts at will, while simultaneously taking the right to strike away. So Far we have been Lucky at FedEx, but that won't continue forever.
ALPA can't raise enough PAC donations because many Pilots are offended that ALPA endoreses Democrats. !(which always confuses me, everyone says what a shame they did that to USAir, UAL or DAL but yet they vote for the People who push for it..........oh well their right I guess., but it gets me that many of those same folks that *****, don't give tot he PAC)
How about we show some stones and call for a National SOS?
I'd be all for it.
The sad part is we can't even got folks to show up on an OFF day and support informational picketing on some one elses property. How many folks showed up in Washing DC yesterday?
ASK a United or NWA pilot to show up and picket for DHL................
Or likewise...............for UPS..........or SWA.
We can't garner support on in the PAX side even with the fact that almost all of them have lost their Pensions. If we can't get enough unity to join each others informational picketing............How do you garner enough support to GROW STONES and become a REAL LABOR UNION.
So while I concur with some of your sentitment, what would you do if you were chief, given the reality of how things are.
From one guy with multiple "I backed the PAC" stickers to another.
05-18-2007, 02:18 PM
#689
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 424
What would I do if I were Prater?
Since I was dumb enough to ask the membership's position, I would adhere to their position.
What would I do if I were DW?
Ditto, especially since they overwhelmingly let me know how they felt about the issue.
I would also realize that since we appear to be powerless in the situation, that we would also be powerless in influencing the legislation. I certainly wouldn't spend our resources on gaining retroactivity for over 60 folks since everyone else seems to want the legislation to be proactive.
You are buying into the BS, wake up dude! Let's oust these guys!
Since I was dumb enough to ask the membership's position, I would adhere to their position.
What would I do if I were DW?
Ditto, especially since they overwhelmingly let me know how they felt about the issue.
I would also realize that since we appear to be powerless in the situation, that we would also be powerless in influencing the legislation. I certainly wouldn't spend our resources on gaining retroactivity for over 60 folks since everyone else seems to want the legislation to be proactive.
You are buying into the BS, wake up dude! Let's oust these guys!
05-18-2007, 02:30 PM
#690
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
[QUOTE=nightfreight;167719]What would I do if I were Prater?
Since I was dumb enough to ask the membership's position, I would adhere to their position.
What would I do if I were DW?
Ditto, especially since they overwhelmingly let me know how they felt about the issue.
I would also realize that since we appear to be powerless in the situation, that we would also be powerless in influencing the legislation. I certainly wouldn't spend our resources on gaining retroactivity for over 60 folks since everyone else seems to want the legislation to be proactive.
You are buying into the BS, wake up dude!
QUOTE]
Look if you don't believe what you are being told, don't believe it.
When the lobbyist say we are at a Dead End, I have to trust them as I am not on the Hill everyday.
ALPA isn't Powerless on the Hill, they are telling you that in as far as AGE 60 is yes they have done all they can do, it is a done deal.
You don't seam to grasp that. in fact they have done many things.
recently FFDO's were the result of ALPA
MAny of the current Duty limits are the results of ALPA in past NPRM's.
Most of the TERPS procedures and protections on your appraoch plates are because of ALPA.
You most recent contract was attainedbecause of help from ALPA (and the hard work of those who you show such disdain for. (and the collective will of the Pilots.)
I must ask, Before you decide to oust them........do you have suitable replacments in mind that want the job?
Since I was dumb enough to ask the membership's position, I would adhere to their position.
What would I do if I were DW?
Ditto, especially since they overwhelmingly let me know how they felt about the issue.
I would also realize that since we appear to be powerless in the situation, that we would also be powerless in influencing the legislation. I certainly wouldn't spend our resources on gaining retroactivity for over 60 folks since everyone else seems to want the legislation to be proactive.
You are buying into the BS, wake up dude!
QUOTE]
Look if you don't believe what you are being told, don't believe it.
When the lobbyist say we are at a Dead End, I have to trust them as I am not on the Hill everyday.
ALPA isn't Powerless on the Hill, they are telling you that in as far as AGE 60 is yes they have done all they can do, it is a done deal.
You don't seam to grasp that. in fact they have done many things.
recently FFDO's were the result of ALPA
MAny of the current Duty limits are the results of ALPA in past NPRM's.
Most of the TERPS procedures and protections on your appraoch plates are because of ALPA.
You most recent contract was attainedbecause of help from ALPA (and the hard work of those who you show such disdain for. (and the collective will of the Pilots.)
I must ask, Before you decide to oust them........do you have suitable replacments in mind that want the job?
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