Birdsmash

Nope! Under 8 OE is two pilot rules. Over 8 OE requires 2 IRO’s. There is no advantage to 2 pilots + IRO (LCA + OE student + IRO). It’s either 2 pilots or 4 pilot rules. There should be no difference between Flag carriers.

Adlerdriver

I agree completely. My bad on my incorrect interpretation of your previous post, I read too much into it.

CaptainDooley

Wow, I didn’t expect such a spirited response.
I think the consensus is that you can only log time at the controls for consolidation and has to be under 8 hrs for 3 pilot crew. That is what I thought, but I don’t see that spelled out in the FARs for Supplemental Ops. If someone has a reference, that would be great so I could stick in the Company’s face.

To address some of the other comments.

-to the guy that referenced 117 rules, they don’t apply to Cargo Ops. Ya I know some company’s use 117 because they have it in their contract. Well we all don’t work at FedEx.

-to be clear, I know IOE is different than consolidation. What my company was going to do when I was doing IOE was have 2 LCA and me fly an out and back trip that was 5 hr each way. We don’t use IROs, all 3 pilot trips have 2 CAs and 1 FO. Ended up not doing the trip because only 1 LCA and 1 regular CA were available. We could not do the trip because as someone pointed out, a LCA has to be in the left seat when I am at the controls and he can only be at the controls 8 hrs max.

- I find it interesting that some people say it depends on how your company logs it. That goes directly to my point. I don’t think the FAA cares how your company does stuff, the actual rules are what matter. Should not be what your particular POI thinks. If the FAA audits your flight time and sees a 10hr trip logged toward consolidation I think they would flag that.

- the reason I posted this was that my company thinks they can get us done with consolidation faster by scheduling us on these 10 hr trips and claiming to whole 10 for consolidation. Even if you only get the 8hrs it is not better. Because you needed extended rest after one of these, even getting 8 hrs per trip is not as good as doing 2 day trips that are 6 hrs total. In that case I could get 12 hrs in two days, vs 8 hrs in two days. But then no one claimed management was smart enough to do math.

Swedish Blender

Check the ACARS. Ours has an accept default (2/3 time), or you can manually input the time. That way you could give someone 8 hours even if you were on a 3/4 man crew.

aviatorhi

Look in FSIMS.
8900.1 Volume 3 Chaper 19 Section 7 Paragraph 3-1286.

The entirety of FSIMS can be used to get a definitive answer on just about any reg/ops related question. It will also bring you to tears reading some forum responses.

gollum

121.434(g): Except as provided in paragraph (h) of this section, pilot in command and second in command crewmembers must each acquire at least 100 hours of line operating flight time for consolidation of knowledge and skills (including operating experience required under paragraph (c) of this section) within 120 days

Key words - flight time.

61.51

(f)Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of § 61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate;


Seems pretty clear that only time in the seat counts.

As far as what GOMs or POIs say about logging the time:

If they did say (which many do)
2 pilot crew - log 100%
3 pilot crew - log 66.66%
4 pilot crew - log 50%

there would be no way you could possibly exceed 8 hours without the entire flight exceeding duty limits (at least under supplemental rules)

2 pilot crew - 8 hrs
3 pilot crew - 12 hours
4 pilot crew - 16 hours

Keep in mind these are planning numbers and if un-forcast conditions cause the flight to exceed the above the someones going to exceed 8 hours in the seat and thats perfectly acceptable. Just be able to explain it.

Raptor

At my airline, a 9 hour flight with an OE student may take 3 or 4 pilots depending on circumstances. A typed F/O upgrading to Captain: 3 pilots total needed—LCA, student upgrade, and F/O. A newly typed FO student...if they have 25 hours in type, then 3 pilots are needed. If the FO student doesn’t have 25 hours in type, then 4 pilots are needed—LCA, student FO, two additional FOs. I can’t imagine the airline isn’t doing it legally.

CaptainDooley

What I have been doing on our 3 pilot flights.
(assume 11.5 flight time total)
I log 8 hrs as SIC time
3.5 as IRO
8 hrs toward the 100 consolidation
11.5 is logged for pay purposes.

The reasoning is as follows.
regs say 8 hrs max at the controls, so that is SIC, and also toward consolidation

we are a 3 pilot crew with no rest area on the plane so therefore the pilot not flying is the IRO when not flying. This is a required crewemember for the flight since it is over 8hrs, so therefore it can be logged.

if you don't agree with the above, I would love to hear how others are logging these log haul flights.

Adlerdriver

Makes sense to me. If the reporting system for logging time allows this kind of flexibility, that's the way I would log such a flight (if I was trying to consolidate and/or get my IEO hours). Once those milestones were met, I just wouldn't care any longer.