IOE with 3pilot crew flight
06-10-2018, 11:36 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Position: Left
Posts: 181
Explain how a three person crew on an over-8 flight accomplishes an IEO flight? The LCA would have to be in the seat for the whole flight and exceeds the FAR limit of 8 hours.Reading between the lines of your post, it sounds like you’re saying the LCA stays on the flight deck to “supervise” the IOE student while he and the IRO are in the seats. If that’s the case, that’s absolute BS. Not the intent of the FAR and I’m really surprised your company hasn’t been called on that. Just what a long haul flight with training being accomplished needs..... a fatigued LCA on approach after nothing but “physiological breaks” the whole flight.
06-10-2018, 11:58 PM
#13
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Posts: 80
Seat time only. You can't log time you were in crew rest or a relief pilot in a jumseat toward consolidation any longer. This is a recent change at my shop. Before 2 years ago, everything was logged toward consolidation. 4th man on a 2 hour flight because company wanted to pad everyone's consolidation time? Sure. 3rd man and spent the whole flight in a bunk? Sure. It was logged 100%, logged it all.
Last year it was 100% of the block time counted for 2 pilot crews, 67% for 3 pilot, 50% for 4 pilot.
Now It's only time in a "control seat". You're the PF performing the TO/LNDG on an 8 hour flight, but take a 2 hour break? You only get 6 hours toward consolidation. You're the relief pilot and spend two hours in the PF seat and 2 hours in the PM seat on an 8 hour flight? You log 4 hours. Etc.
Last year it was 100% of the block time counted for 2 pilot crews, 67% for 3 pilot, 50% for 4 pilot.
Now It's only time in a "control seat". You're the PF performing the TO/LNDG on an 8 hour flight, but take a 2 hour break? You only get 6 hours toward consolidation. You're the relief pilot and spend two hours in the PF seat and 2 hours in the PM seat on an 8 hour flight? You log 4 hours. Etc.
06-11-2018, 12:18 AM
#14
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Posts: 80
This. I may smell like a narrow body pilot, but I’m not a narrow body pilot. I don’t recall discussing, learning, or reading about IOE flight hours being worth 2/3. I would love to know why that is. My LCA recorded and submitted to the company (as did I) a form outlining hours flown to the employer. It wasn’t at 2/3 the value.
Anyway, this was probably all getting changed because carriers were abusing their ability to put 1 or 2 relief pilots new to type needlessly on flights under 8/12 hours block because so they could pad their consolidation hours. I don't know if the changes are supposed to be universal or if they are carrier specific.
06-11-2018, 12:30 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Position: Left
Posts: 181
Seat time only. You can't log time you were in crew rest or a relief pilot in a jumseat toward consolidation any longer. This is a recent change at my shop. Before 2 years ago, everything was logged toward consolidation. 4th man on a 2 hour flight because company wanted to pad everyone's consolidation time? Sure. 3rd man and spent the whole flight in a bunk? Sure. It was logged 100%, logged it all.
Last year it was 100% of the block time counted for 2 pilot crews, 67% for 3 pilot, 50% for 4 pilot.
Now It's only time in a "control seat". You're the PF performing the TO/LNDG on an 8 hour flight, but take a 2 hour break? You only get 6 hours toward consolidation. You're the relief pilot and spend two hours in the PF seat and 2 hours in the PM seat on an 8 hour flight? You log 4 hours. Etc.
Last year it was 100% of the block time counted for 2 pilot crews, 67% for 3 pilot, 50% for 4 pilot.
Now It's only time in a "control seat". You're the PF performing the TO/LNDG on an 8 hour flight, but take a 2 hour break? You only get 6 hours toward consolidation. You're the relief pilot and spend two hours in the PF seat and 2 hours in the PM seat on an 8 hour flight? You log 4 hours. Etc.
06-11-2018, 12:45 AM
#16
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: Window Seat
Posts: 1,430
8900.1 v3 c19 s7
None of this 50/67 percentage based garbage. You were either in the seat or you weren't. Pick one.
Explain how a three person crew on an over-8 flight accomplishes an IEO flight? The LCA would have to be in the seat for the whole flight and exceeds the FAR limit of 8 hours.
Reading between the lines of your post, it sounds like you’re saying the LCA stays on the flight deck to “supervise” the IOE student while he and the IRO are in the seats. If that’s the case, that’s absolute BS. Not the intent of the FAR and I’m really surprised your company hasn’t been called on that. Just what a long haul flight with training being accomplished needs..... a fatigued LCA on approach after nothing but “physiological breaks” the whole flight.
You're beyond clueless. Obviously they're up front only for 8 hours of the 8+ hour block time. If the LCA needs to pee the trainee can stay up front. And you can count on 16 hour flights being used for OE and COKS. Especially if a gross majority of the flying is long haul.
OP. Your topic and post are misleading. For logging purposes the answer is the same but COKS and OE are two different animals.
3-1286 line operating flight time for the consolidation of knowledge and skills (part 121).
In accordance with § 121.434(g) pics and sics must complete a minimum of 100 hours of flight time performing the duties of pic or sic, respectively, in operations under part 121 in the airplane type within 120 days after completion of a § 121.441 proficiency check completed in an initial new-hire, initial equipment, transition, or upgrade from fe to sic curriculum. Time spent by a pilot while not seated at the controls, including time spent resting, as required by part 117 and part 121 subparts q, r, and s, cannot be counted to satisfy the consolidation requirements of § 121.434 (refer to legal interpretation to hugh thomas, june 10, 2013).
In accordance with § 121.434(g) pics and sics must complete a minimum of 100 hours of flight time performing the duties of pic or sic, respectively, in operations under part 121 in the airplane type within 120 days after completion of a § 121.441 proficiency check completed in an initial new-hire, initial equipment, transition, or upgrade from fe to sic curriculum. Time spent by a pilot while not seated at the controls, including time spent resting, as required by part 117 and part 121 subparts q, r, and s, cannot be counted to satisfy the consolidation requirements of § 121.434 (refer to legal interpretation to hugh thomas, june 10, 2013).
Explain how a three person crew on an over-8 flight accomplishes an IEO flight? The LCA would have to be in the seat for the whole flight and exceeds the FAR limit of 8 hours.Reading between the lines of your post, it sounds like you’re saying the LCA stays on the flight deck to “supervise” the IOE student while he and the IRO are in the seats. If that’s the case, that’s absolute BS. Not the intent of the FAR and I’m really surprised your company hasn’t been called on that. Just what a long haul flight with training being accomplished needs..... a fatigued LCA on approach after nothing but “physiological breaks” the whole flight.
OP. Your topic and post are misleading. For logging purposes the answer is the same but COKS and OE are two different animals.
06-11-2018, 03:16 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 3,989
Call it garbage if you want but that’s the way it is at some companies. If you’re working at some ratchet outfit that logs with pencil, crayon or whatever, then I guess you can do what you want.
As to the rest, I’ll let Birdsmash respond.
06-11-2018, 03:50 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2017
Position: 777 Left window seat
Posts: 680
Explain how a three person crew on an over-8 flight accomplishes an IEO flight? The LCA would have to be in the seat for the whole flight and exceeds the FAR limit of 8 hours.Reading between the lines of your post, it sounds like you’re saying the LCA stays on the flight deck to “supervise” the IOE student while he and the IRO are in the seats. If that’s the case, that’s absolute BS. Not the intent of the FAR and I’m really surprised your company hasn’t been called on that. Just what a long haul flight with training being accomplished needs..... a fatigued LCA on approach after nothing but “physiological breaks” the whole flight.
06-11-2018, 03:59 AM
#19
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: Window Seat
Posts: 1,430
When one works for a company that consistently uses the convention of splitting flight time equally among a 3 or 4 pilot crew AND automates the process of logging time there is no option. You can sit up in the seat for 8 hours on a 9 hour flight if you want just on principle, but you’re going to get 6 towards consolidation.
Call it garbage if you want but that’s the way it is at some companies. If you’re working at some ratchet outfit that logs with pencil, crayon or whatever, then I guess you can do what you want.
As to the rest, I’ll let Birdsmash respond.
Call it garbage if you want but that’s the way it is at some companies. If you’re working at some ratchet outfit that logs with pencil, crayon or whatever, then I guess you can do what you want.
As to the rest, I’ll let Birdsmash respond.
Judging by the fact that you found it implausible to perform OE on a flight longer than 8 hours I have additional doubts about your credibility.
06-11-2018, 06:26 AM
#20
Polyester Pilot
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: 777 CA
Posts: 513
Yeah I work at Omni... lots of ratcheting we do here. We also make the record reflective of reality rather than falsifying it or forcing the flightcrew into a bind. Good luck with your own rqtcheting and flat out ignoring the regulating authority. Seems someone with a brain cell or two should be bringing that up with the proper channels.
Judging by the fact that you found it implausible to perform OE on a flight longer than 8 hours I have additional doubts about your credibility.
Judging by the fact that you found it implausible to perform OE on a flight longer than 8 hours I have additional doubts about your credibility.
How about we just acknowledge the fact that each airline has different POI's and as we all know FAA interpretations vary from district to district. It is possible that there are numerous ways of logging this stuff based on who and where you got your answer.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
