kwri10s

Question! What is the previaling wisdom about movement dates for lateral bids. This is a side spin from the passover discussion. Just wanted to see what the wise think the policy is. Specifically, I am interested in how a person with a lateral bid (MD-11 ANC to MEM) would move with respect to someone who bids an upgrade or initial bid on the same posting?

Purple F/O

This post seems to invite the old joke about the difference between theory and reality.

The way it's been working recently is that the lateral x-fer happens when you would have started training in the new bid. Meaning that if you were an ANC MD-11 waiting to x-fer to MEM, you would do so when your seniority would have had you training for MEM in the current training letter.

In the past, it has been when you would have activated instead of started training. Nevertheless, you will probably get to your new base faster if you are lateralling vice waiting to train.

It also seems that the x-fer dates are more firm than training dates, but I haven't watched them that closely.

md11phlyer

You can start by going into VIPS and checking out the training letter for the 11. Each guy's training date also shows which bid he was awarded it (602), whether it's initial, trans or lateral and which base.

That being said, I just tried to look at it and formulate some sort of pattern. About 15 seconds later my brain went 'timeout-reselect.' I tried comparing bases and seniority and it seemed to all be pretty random. I have heard of there being more leeway in laterals as far as moving your date a month forward or back. This makes sense as they don't have ground school and sim schedules involved.

Sounds like a job for Tony if you ask me.

MaxKts

Laterals are usually based on manning levels. You can't leave your previous base until they have your replacement trained. All that being said - with the MOAB bids lately and training slides alot of guys bid a new domicile before being trained. With that it seems to depend on which way the wind was blowing when the training letter comes out.

I had a professor once that said when it came to grading papers he would throw them all in the air and the ones that landed face-up got an A+. picked up the rest and threw them again for the A etc etc. You always hoped to be face up in the first three tosses

It would be nice if they were cosistent on how they handled training bids and also go to smaller more frequent bids.

130JDrvr

On the Fall "05 bid. I believe it closed late sept or early oct. On 1 Nov, all the folks that were just swapping dom all moved at one time. Not sure if that has happened since, I haven't looked.

FWIW....

Past....

kwri10s

Well according to the union, the understanding the crew force has, is that lateral bids move at the beginning of the training cycle and will activate in their new positions prior to senior bidders who need training. Passover pay is only based upon training out of order not flying the line at the new domicile out of order. I was not under that understanding and I just wondered how many other were not. I guess I must be in the minority.

FXDX

The only thing for certain is that lateral moves have no impact on passover pay, it is that simple.

Same seat, same domicile, same or later bid.

As to how the lateral dates are assigned? PFM to me.

kwri10s

Here is what the contract says about passover:

Passover Pay Due To Junior Pilot’s Early Activation

In case of a junior pilot’s activation to a higher paying position out of seniority order, every senior pilot who meets the following prerequisites shall be paid as if he had activated in that higher paying position (passover pay):

i. the junior pilot and the senior pilot(s) hold an award for the same crew position; and
ii. the junior pilot’s award is from the same posting as the senior pilot’s award or from a subsequent posting; and
iii. the Company chooses to activate the junior pilot prior to the senior pilot(s) and the junior pilot’s activation delays the training and activation of the senior pilot(s).

Activation Date is defined as "the date a pilot is released from training upon a certified completion of IOE or, if training is not required, then on a date specified for activation by the company."

The issue is activation date. If the Union position of lateral bids will activate to the line prior to anyone that required training off the same posting, then why would everyone senior not get passover. The 800lb gorilla in this line of questioning are the "nuggets." If they can activate directly to the line in MEM prior to those that need training then on the next bid, those that need training can watch their training dates slide while the nuggets fill the 11 FO holes. There are 50+ nuggets all with the ability to slide right back to MEM. I don't know how long 50 FOs would allow training slots to slide. But at a 12 FO per month training cycle, they just cost you 4 months of widebody FO pay. 6 per month...and you get the picture.

Instant activation of junior pilots into a new domicile out of order could potentially allow a perpetual train for ANC slide to MEM pipeline. For example, if I want to bid MEM 11 Capt but I cannot hold it, then I bid ANC 11 Capt. If a new bid comes out and I can now hold the last MEM 11 Capt slot with a training slot 18 months farther down the road. I know with this lateral slide policy, I will keep my first training slot for 11 Capt, however, I can slide to MEM immediately. Effectively bypassing everyone senior to me who was awarded the same slot on the same posting.

Just a line of thinking that has made me go Hmmm.??!!

FXDX

i is the answer to your question.

Lateral moves don't trigger passover because ANC FO and MEM FO are not the same crew position.

If you are only worried about the money then bid ANC FO or CAPT and take your chances. That is how the contract is worded and that is how the company is using the contract to its advantage to staff ANC.

If the money is that important to you and the ANC guys are getting such a good deal, then go bid ANC. Be prepared to do the time in ANC though.

If the guys are willing to game the system and take a chance on getting "stuck" in ANC long term then they deserve the pay because they are at least flying the equipment.

I am obviously wired differently because 2 years ago when my Bus training date was slid several times I didn't complain because I was losing money. Training slides occur all the time and will continue to do so regardless of the ANC golden nugget program. That is the way things go in our imperfect world.

Until we change the wording in i above we are just pizzing up a rope.

SNAFU

I have to agree.

Section 24 page 1

"24 A. 2. A pilot's crew position (i.e., domicile, aircraft and seat), shall be determined by his seniority and standing bid."