Specific example out of the contract on page 6 of section 24 under examples:

"Pilots 1-20 all awarded MemXXXCapt from the same posting. Pilot #18 is activated first because he needs no training (already having been an XXXCapt at another domicile).....Pilots 1-17 don't get passover pay when pilot 18 is activated because 18's activation did not delay their activations."

That is it in a nutshell, understanding of course that the real issue here is why did one guy get to keep his training date from the earlier posting instead of having it canceled like everybody else.

That is the only problem I see and I would like to have the union reps be a little more responsive to the questions that arise because of that.

Apologies to FDXLAG, but I think he highlighted the wrong section. The key words are junior pilot’s activation delays the training and activation of the senior pilot(s). Assuming the 1st bid ANC pilot trains in his original date and activates in ANC, and then transfers to MEM, his transfer has no affect on the new second bid MEM pilots training date, which is set at the publishing of the posting award, and would not trigger passover pay. Also, unless the bids come one on top of the other, as recently happened, the junior man would probably spend a while in ANC before his transfer to MEM. Also, I disagree that all pilots instantly transfer. If you look at past bids, all the ANC to MEM transfers are spread over a long period,allowing for replacements to be trained, except for posting 06-02, which has caused all the ruckus. I know for a fact that in 01, a good buddy, another pilot of my seniority, held ANC on a previous bid and was awarded MEM on the subsequent bid, went to his original training, activated in ANC, and spent 15 mo there, transfering well after his contemporaries who trained for MEM activated here, and 3 months after his scheduled transfer date. This is the much more common scenario.

If you are so concerned, you should write up a new passover pay section to present to the union for inclusion in the next CBA. Of course, you will have to make it cover every possible scenario of bids, training, aircraft aquisition, crew bases, and pilot hiring, and not give anyone of any seniority or crew position any reason to think they were being sc#$%d over by either the company or ALPA. If you can do that, You are my new skygod.

No need to apologize it is not me you are quoting. If the guy activated in ANC then no passover due. Makes sense. If a guy didn't activate in ANC after training with an ANC slot than passover should be paid and if the union signed off other wise they should answer.

SNAFU, thanks for the reference. I did not see that as the section heading was for delayed training. That is a great reference. So for those thinking of bidding the 11 FO or 11 CA in MEM, we just need to remember that the ANC lateral moves WILL move prior to our training, regardless of seniority. So for every 6 ANC guys that are able to hold the seat on the posting, a IT or upgrade training slot will be slid by apx one month for CAs and 1/2 month for FOs.

I guess my thinking about activation seems to be off. To me it seems that if a pilot junior to you is flying the line off the same posting then by default isn't your activation affected. If it only one or two pilots then maybe it will not be a huge difference but a difference still the same. If there are 15 transfers then wouldn't that delay your training. Maybe no need for the company to seek off-site slots, or perhaps the class sizes can be smaller to allow for a smoother flow. I agree, usually it doesn't make a big difference but in this instance we had a double wammy. All of our training slots were moved from fall to spring AND depending on your seat position it could have cost you thousands in retro (bonus) pay.

I'm not a smart man, but it would seem that like everything else here a base transfer pilot should activate to the line in seniority order with everyone else off the same posting. Since base transfers seem to be easily accomplished why shouldn't the transfer occur immediately following the pilot senior to you activation. I will try to see if I can write-up a proposal for the union. Perhaps this can be fixed.

Transfering from one Domicile (already activated there) to another domicile is not an Activation it is a Transfer. They are two totally different things.

On previous postings, this was generally the way it worked. Not necessarilly waiting for activation, but assigning a date that approximated the same seniority activation after training, giving allowance for a replacement in ANC or SFS prior to transfer. The posted transfer dates for 06-02 were listed that way, ranging from last July to this January, with a Nov 07 date for an LAX guy. I'm not sure why the most junior guy got a Sep date. I also don't know how these dates mesh with the original training dates for this bid, but I doubt that any training slides were due to ANC guys transferring. More than likely, they were due to training failures, Sim maint problems and off-site scheduling. Likewise, I can understand a reluctance on everyone's part to not move transfer dates too much, as they theoretically involve a residence move, and can involve changing shipping dates for household goods, vehicles, etc (whether at the Company's or the individual pilots expense.)

BTW - my info on posted transfer dates comes from https://pilot.fedex.com/general/post...er_dates.shtml

Unfortunately, as the training letter gets revised, the old one is deleted, so there is no way to compare original transfer dates to the original expected activation dates.

There are 3 conditions that ALL must be met. They are not an either/any of the three, ALL 3 conditions have to be met.

Everybody (who is confused) seems to focus on the last of the 3 conditions, the delay in training. That alone does not trigger passover pay.

Here are the THREE conditions again:

i. the junior pilot and the senior pilot(s) hold an award for the same crew position; and
ii. the junior pilot’s award is from the same posting as the senior pilot’s award or from a subsequent posting; and
iii. the Company chooses to activate the junior pilot prior to the senior pilot(s) and the junior pilot’s activation delays the training and activation of the senior pilot(s).

ALL of these words are KEY words.

Yes, as jdec141 points out, those guys in ANC have already activated (or should have, if they have not, then there is a problem, and that appears to have happened in at least one case, hence all the consternation) in their new crew position. That position would have been ANC MD11 FO. That is not the same crew position as MEM MD11 FO. So they are already trained and are simply transferring to another domicile. They aren't delaying training directly (although the company may have trained them first initially in order to fill a need in ANC, that is beside the point contractually) of anybody who is awarded the crew position in MEM.

Yes it may seem unfair that someone junior to you is making more money sooner and transferring into MEM before you can train, but it is perfectly in accordance with the contract.

If you want/need the big bucks at the earliest opportunity you need to bid ANC and be prepared to get stuck there if the merry go round stops.

Memories are very short, but just a couple of years ago hiring stopped for almost 2 years just like that. It can happen again, so if you do try to game the system and bid ANC be prepared to play it out until you can work the transfer on the next bid.

Actually they are the same. That is where some confusion has evolved.

Under the def of activation date: "The date a pilot is released from training upon certified completion of IOE or, if training is not required, then on a date specified for activation by the Company."

It seemed that a base transfer fell under this heading because training was not required. But as SNAFU pointed out the example says something else, so off we go. As long as we understand all the rules it is easy to play going forward.