A future in aviation? I have some questions.
12-24-2015, 03:31 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,197
Now called a "line technician", fancy for the guy that fuels small planes, washes and cleans, helps the mechanics, does scheduling--all around guy. Don't go to the big airline airport, find one with a small flight school, maybe a rich guy with a Bonanza or the local airline pilot hangs out. With luck you might get some cheap flying. No license required.
Just get a degree, "rush" the unit of your choice, more than one is fine--I did three in the Northeast. State ANG do offer tuition assistance to members, if you enlist. You don't need to do so, I didn't, neither did the 15 or so guys and gals I sent to UPT. Some were unit enlisted flight crew, though. It's a long career, you Wong fix it in weeks or months.
No prior training other than OCS for 12 weeks nowadays. You will need some flight time to be selected, but some unit slots have been going begging.
GF
Just get a degree, "rush" the unit of your choice, more than one is fine--I did three in the Northeast. State ANG do offer tuition assistance to members, if you enlist. You don't need to do so, I didn't, neither did the 15 or so guys and gals I sent to UPT. Some were unit enlisted flight crew, though. It's a long career, you Wong fix it in weeks or months.
No prior training other than OCS for 12 weeks nowadays. You will need some flight time to be selected, but some unit slots have been going begging.
GF
12-24-2015, 03:38 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,197
I'm a little chary of the "college as back-up plan" idea. Just having a degree means not much in the real world. Say you get a degree in accounting, 10 years later you're a furloughed pilot, guess what, no one is going to hire you as an accountant--no current experience. You must be practical here. The degree teaches you to think, not a trade.
Believe me, in the mid-70s, going military was my last thought until I looked into and had a friend helping. It's evolved over the years but still the best deal. I had 5 students in UPT when I retired 10 years ago, I think all of them are at legacies now. Three others are at UPS.
GF
Believe me, in the mid-70s, going military was my last thought until I looked into and had a friend helping. It's evolved over the years but still the best deal. I had 5 students in UPT when I retired 10 years ago, I think all of them are at legacies now. Three others are at UPS.
GF
Last edited by galaxy flyer; 12-24-2015 at 03:49 PM.
12-24-2015, 05:31 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: ERJ, CA
Posts: 718
I don't think anyone mentioned Civil Air Patrol. This and JROTC are great introductory to military life. And you can network through CAP while having fun. Save money on your degree bu busting your butt and doing AP courses and or CLEP.
12-24-2015, 05:40 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,527
That is an example of about the fastest you could advance. It takes a lot of effort and timing. Possible, but you need to realize it's not the normal pace.
Yes, licenses, CFI, regional. My buddy's son just did that - a year to get his ratings, another 18 months to get 1500 hrs and hired by a regional. He could have been a little faster than a year getting his ratings but changed schools. Even on his timeline you could graduate in 1.5 - 2.5 yrs(depending upon what grade you're in), spend 6-12 months getting your ratings, another 18 months getting to 1500 hrs to get on with a regional. So you're realistic looking at about 2.5 yrs from start of training to regional job.
In flight school you can't do college courses. Your focus should be on learning the flight and ground requirements. But with advance work, and AP testing out(?), you could have some college requirements done. The 18 months getting up to 1500 hrs could include college courses (2-3 semester, year round, 3 is better). About 40 courses gets you a degree. That's five years at 8 courses/year.
So 18th year is flight school.
19th is working towards 1500 hrs and starting college courses. That means graduating at 24 yrs old with a degree (8 courses/year).
Achieve 1500 hrs at 21? Get a regional job? Get 3500 hrs in 4 years (900/hr average) at the regional, for a total of 5,000 hrs TT, and you're at 25 yrs old, four year degree, and starting fifth year pay/longevity at the regional. By then that might mean an upgrade to Captain.
This is a hard time line to achieve. It won't be easy.
If you're at an airline with a guaranteed flow through agreement to a major airline you could join the ANG during that time and attend the USAF training. You'd keep your seniority (and your flow through date/number??). That's an aggressive but achievable goal. And wearing the uniform of your country, and supporting the ground troops in any capacity, is something to always be proud of.
Flying has risk. All of it has risk, especially when you're building time and experience. You can't avoid that. Getting good training, like the military provides, should reduce your overall risk over the length of your career.
Last edited by Sliceback; 12-24-2015 at 05:57 PM. Reason: Get ....5,000 hrs TT
12-24-2015, 05:47 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Position: Q400, B-737
Posts: 324
Everybody else has nailed most of it, so I'll just toss in a few of my observations.
Do you want to do this more than anything else in the world???
You need to, really, it takes a helluva lot of comittment to get here. The attrition is really, really high.
(I never wanted to do anything else and it took me a while.)
If you're rich, or willing, the four year aviation schools are fine, but it's too much money, and the degree isn't useful for anything else if you lose your medical, IMHO.
(I recently flew with a new FO, (great kid, he'll go far), who was raised by a single mom and had to take out loans for all of his flight training/degree at ERAU. Want to guess his debt? $173,000-!!!! So, it can be done, but it might financially kill you in the attempt.)
Go to a community college for two years, then transfer to a four-year school. You can get all the basic stuff out of the way and save a lot. 'Cause airplanes are expensive.
Alternately, consider enlisting in the service for a few years. The USAF (or Navy) can put you on airplanes and some of the educational benefits, (GI bill), are great. I could've done a couple of years active duty considering all the time I spent dicking around trying to get things going. As it stands, I retired after 21+ years in the Guard, and they helped pay for some of my schooling. (You should already know if this interests you or not. The military lifestyle is not for everyone.)
As has been mentioned, if there's a small airport nearby, go get a job as lineservice. The pay isn't great, but that's not the reason to do it. It's the best basic all-around aviation education you can get. You'll learn about everything to do with airplanes. I got rides that way, my first multi time, was shown things by airline guys on their days off, sat right seat on charters, you name it...
It's the best job in the world.
And it's the worst job in the world...
(Allow me to mention my Thanksgiving dinner last month. It was: two cans of beer, a bag of Cheetos, some nuts, and a day-old ham and cheese sandwich. From the gas station on the side of the interstate. Everything else fell through. On the flip side, tomorrow I'm buying Christmas dinner at our posh hotel for our crew @ $60- a plate. Four courses, swordfish, prime rib, etc... Should be good.)
It's terrible for people that want a normal, 9 to 5 life. It's often hell on relationships, and the divorce rate is pretty high. (Choose wisely.)
But on the flip side, I get to do and see things that most people can't even imagine. Within limits, I have no boss. The company expects me to show up on time, and bring the airplane back after several days in one piece.
No one is checking on my progress, asking for paperwork, having conference calls or meetings, nada. We are effectively autonomous. Our sense of freedom is immense. The world is literally my office...
Do this: go buy a book that just came out this year. It's called "Skyfaring" by a guy named Mark Vanhoenacker. He's a guy flying long-haul for British Airways I believe. There are some meditations on flight that probably won't be germane or interest you, but it'll give you a good idea about what some of the aspects of our lives are like. Written for a general audience, it's pretty good.
Good luck. Whatever you do, don't do it for the money, that's just gravy, (remember, they don't give you anything for free).
Do it because you want to, more than anything else.
Do you want to do this more than anything else in the world???
You need to, really, it takes a helluva lot of comittment to get here. The attrition is really, really high.
(I never wanted to do anything else and it took me a while.)
If you're rich, or willing, the four year aviation schools are fine, but it's too much money, and the degree isn't useful for anything else if you lose your medical, IMHO.
(I recently flew with a new FO, (great kid, he'll go far), who was raised by a single mom and had to take out loans for all of his flight training/degree at ERAU. Want to guess his debt? $173,000-!!!! So, it can be done, but it might financially kill you in the attempt.)
Go to a community college for two years, then transfer to a four-year school. You can get all the basic stuff out of the way and save a lot. 'Cause airplanes are expensive.
Alternately, consider enlisting in the service for a few years. The USAF (or Navy) can put you on airplanes and some of the educational benefits, (GI bill), are great. I could've done a couple of years active duty considering all the time I spent dicking around trying to get things going. As it stands, I retired after 21+ years in the Guard, and they helped pay for some of my schooling. (You should already know if this interests you or not. The military lifestyle is not for everyone.)
As has been mentioned, if there's a small airport nearby, go get a job as lineservice. The pay isn't great, but that's not the reason to do it. It's the best basic all-around aviation education you can get. You'll learn about everything to do with airplanes. I got rides that way, my first multi time, was shown things by airline guys on their days off, sat right seat on charters, you name it...
It's the best job in the world.
And it's the worst job in the world...
(Allow me to mention my Thanksgiving dinner last month. It was: two cans of beer, a bag of Cheetos, some nuts, and a day-old ham and cheese sandwich. From the gas station on the side of the interstate. Everything else fell through. On the flip side, tomorrow I'm buying Christmas dinner at our posh hotel for our crew @ $60- a plate. Four courses, swordfish, prime rib, etc... Should be good.)
It's terrible for people that want a normal, 9 to 5 life. It's often hell on relationships, and the divorce rate is pretty high. (Choose wisely.)
But on the flip side, I get to do and see things that most people can't even imagine. Within limits, I have no boss. The company expects me to show up on time, and bring the airplane back after several days in one piece.
No one is checking on my progress, asking for paperwork, having conference calls or meetings, nada. We are effectively autonomous. Our sense of freedom is immense. The world is literally my office...
Do this: go buy a book that just came out this year. It's called "Skyfaring" by a guy named Mark Vanhoenacker. He's a guy flying long-haul for British Airways I believe. There are some meditations on flight that probably won't be germane or interest you, but it'll give you a good idea about what some of the aspects of our lives are like. Written for a general audience, it's pretty good.
Good luck. Whatever you do, don't do it for the money, that's just gravy, (remember, they don't give you anything for free).
Do it because you want to, more than anything else.
12-24-2015, 05:53 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,527
Thanks Sliceback for another reply! I have some additional questions that I wrote down. The numbers correspond to your answers
#4 On layovers, what is the minimum time?
#7 Do you often run into people again on another flight? Can you put any input on who you want to fly with or is it up to chance?
#10 are confidence maneuvers a required part of flight training?
-I remember when I was flying into Barcelona over the summer and we flew over the port, it is something I will never forget. Also, when making landings in places like San Fransisco where the runway goes out into the bay, are those landings/takeoffs extra difficult and do they require any extra precaution?
#11 When I am flying before a regional airline, would I be working as a flight instructor?
#4 On layovers, what is the minimum time?
#7 Do you often run into people again on another flight? Can you put any input on who you want to fly with or is it up to chance?
#10 are confidence maneuvers a required part of flight training?
-I remember when I was flying into Barcelona over the summer and we flew over the port, it is something I will never forget. Also, when making landings in places like San Fransisco where the runway goes out into the bay, are those landings/takeoffs extra difficult and do they require any extra precaution?
#11 When I am flying before a regional airline, would I be working as a flight instructor?
Answers -
4. Basically about 10-12 hrs. Being at the absolute minimum typically isn't build into the schedule because a slight delay inbound generates a delayed start the next morning. The overall goal is to restart the day as close to 100% as possible and naturally it decays somewhat during the day due to reality of moving complex machines across the world dealing with Mother Nature.
7. It depends. Some guys you see multiple times in a month if you're on the same schedule and don't trade your trips around. Or you'll fall into a pattern of bidding the same trips month after month. Once I flew four of seven months with the same FO. Thankfully he retired in the 8th month...
Or you might have the same schedule for a month and both of you trade away enough trips so that you never fly with each other. Had that with a friend, scheduled to fly three months, two back to back, and a third month four months later. We never flew together until we both traded for the same trip in the fifth month.
If you're in a small bid status, with perhaps only 15 CA's and 15 FO's, you'll fly with the same guys all the time. If you're in a bid status of 500 guys in each seat you might not see the same guy for months or years.
10. In the USAF it's a requirement. I called it the 'scare the ****z out of the student maneuver' until I got to like it.
11. That is the typical career progression - CFI then regional FO. But there are other ways to get the 1500 hrs. Banner towing(lots of flight time each month), sight seeing rides, pipe line inspection, etc. But CFI (Certified Flight Instructor) is probably the most common.
12-24-2015, 07:52 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 30 West
Posts: 425
I am happy you like my name. The reason I use that name is that I used to own a Yak-52.
12-24-2015, 08:13 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,197
Good luck. Whatever you do, don't do it for the money, that's just gravy, (remember, they don't give you anything for free). Do it because you want to, more than anything else.
GF
12-24-2015, 08:21 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,527
Hanging out at the local airport, or working there, is a great way to start making contacts and being around pilots. You'll learn some good, some bad, just by listening or being given opportunities that pop up.
12-24-2015, 09:31 PM
#40
What’s it doing now?
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: 190CA
Posts: 726
Hi I am 16 and am interested in a career being a pilot and had a few questions regarding the profession. I haven't had any formal flight training yet but I am hoping to have some soon and I don't know many pilots that I could talk to so I came to this forum. Even if you cannot answer all of these questions, please answer the ones you can because all of your answers would be awesome and greatly appreciated!
1) Does the college degree you receive impact airline hiring decisions? I heard getting a degree is just proof that you can make a commitment to airlines, is this true?
Nope. They have lots of applicants so the easiest way to weed some out is to require a 4 year degree. Get it. Go to a state school, dont spend a lot on it, and enjoy your time there, Stay out of trouble with booze and drugs, make someone else drive.
2) Do well know aviation colleges such as Embry Riddle influences hiring decisions?
-Follow up to #2: If you went to Embry Riddle, can you tell me which one you went to (Daytona Beach or Prescott) and your overall impression and experience in college? Also, if you went to Embry Riddle Prescott, where was the airport you trained out of?
Nope. State school, as little debt as possible, fly before or after or on the side.
3) Could you go through your typical schedule on a work day? (Hours in advance you prepare, get to the airport, preflight check, and flight.)
I don't live where I'm based, so I have to so I have to commute by airplane(jumpseat) to my base to start a trip. Sometimes I leave home the day before. Trips are usually 3-4 days. As many as 4 flights/9 hours of flying per day but usually 5 to 6 hours.
4) Layovers constantly allude me; what is a typical overnight stay like? do you have time to visit and travel around and how long is a normal layover (Overnighters and not-overnighters?) Do you pay for your housing or hotel on a layover or is that based on your airliner? Is the hotel usually descent? How would an international layover differ from a regional layover?
Between a minimum of 10 and a max of about 30 hour layover. Sometimes just dinner and bed, sometimes seeing the town, sometimes it's a crew you want to hang out with, sometimes it isn't. Airline pays for lodging when you're on a trip. Higher paying major airlines have better hotels, regional airlines have crummier ones. But none of them are home, no matter how nice.
5) Could you describe your experiences after college? How many years you had to work before you got a job as a pilot, how long it took you to become a captain, and how long it took to get hired by a legacy?
private license in High School. 4 year business degree, then ATP flight school to finish up my ratings, flight instructor for 2.5 years, 2 regionals flying turboprops for 2 years as an FO, 2 as a captain, then JetBlue called. Probably pretty fast, as I had 3000 hours and was 28 when a 'major' airline called.
6) My parents are really skeptical about me becoming a pilot and the initial investment we need to put forth for a profession that may soon die off. Has advancements in computer technology posed a risk for pilot jobs in the near future or is a transition to a fully automated cockpit a long way away?
Two pilots are cheaper than redesigning an airplane or trying to establish a really secure ground link. Also tragedies like the Germanwings crash show why it's important to have two people up there. Drones and UAVs are great for doing some military or civilian missions but Not for airliners. My 2 cents.
7) What do you do while you are flying? Are you constantly sharp and checking your dashboard or is it ok to relax a little by listening to music?
I do a lot of shorter flights less than 2 hours so there isn't a ton of down time but I talk to the other person about things other than work or maybe read for a little bit at a time. If I get too engrossed in something else I miss radio calls or become a crummy pilot.
8) Why did you become a pilot and what pushed you to investigate a career in aviation?
airplanes always had a weird and constant pull for me.
9) Do you regret becoming a pilot? If you were to go back in time, would you still want to become a pilot when you get older?
Wouldn't trade it for anything. I was a B and C student most of the time because that took little effort. Aviation was the only thing I was disappointed if I didn't get 100%.
10) What were some of the biggest surprises (good and bad) that you encountered as an airline pilot?
The schedule can be amazing or horrible. You have to take the good with the bad, sometimes you're in training on a new airplane and don't see you family for 6 weeks or you miss birthdays and holidays. Other times you'll lie to your neighbors instead of telling them how little you work. This job can take from you but it can also give.
11) What recommendations would you give to a 16 year old to help him become a pilot if he hasn't had any experience flying a plane?
Take a discovery flight at a local airport with a good instructor, most pilots are hooked quick.
Thanks you so much for your answers, you don't know how much these answers will help! Happy holidays and sorry that this post was so long!
1) Does the college degree you receive impact airline hiring decisions? I heard getting a degree is just proof that you can make a commitment to airlines, is this true?
Nope. They have lots of applicants so the easiest way to weed some out is to require a 4 year degree. Get it. Go to a state school, dont spend a lot on it, and enjoy your time there, Stay out of trouble with booze and drugs, make someone else drive.
2) Do well know aviation colleges such as Embry Riddle influences hiring decisions?
-Follow up to #2: If you went to Embry Riddle, can you tell me which one you went to (Daytona Beach or Prescott) and your overall impression and experience in college? Also, if you went to Embry Riddle Prescott, where was the airport you trained out of?
Nope. State school, as little debt as possible, fly before or after or on the side.
3) Could you go through your typical schedule on a work day? (Hours in advance you prepare, get to the airport, preflight check, and flight.)
I don't live where I'm based, so I have to so I have to commute by airplane(jumpseat) to my base to start a trip. Sometimes I leave home the day before. Trips are usually 3-4 days. As many as 4 flights/9 hours of flying per day but usually 5 to 6 hours.
4) Layovers constantly allude me; what is a typical overnight stay like? do you have time to visit and travel around and how long is a normal layover (Overnighters and not-overnighters?) Do you pay for your housing or hotel on a layover or is that based on your airliner? Is the hotel usually descent? How would an international layover differ from a regional layover?
Between a minimum of 10 and a max of about 30 hour layover. Sometimes just dinner and bed, sometimes seeing the town, sometimes it's a crew you want to hang out with, sometimes it isn't. Airline pays for lodging when you're on a trip. Higher paying major airlines have better hotels, regional airlines have crummier ones. But none of them are home, no matter how nice.
5) Could you describe your experiences after college? How many years you had to work before you got a job as a pilot, how long it took you to become a captain, and how long it took to get hired by a legacy?
private license in High School. 4 year business degree, then ATP flight school to finish up my ratings, flight instructor for 2.5 years, 2 regionals flying turboprops for 2 years as an FO, 2 as a captain, then JetBlue called. Probably pretty fast, as I had 3000 hours and was 28 when a 'major' airline called.
6) My parents are really skeptical about me becoming a pilot and the initial investment we need to put forth for a profession that may soon die off. Has advancements in computer technology posed a risk for pilot jobs in the near future or is a transition to a fully automated cockpit a long way away?
Two pilots are cheaper than redesigning an airplane or trying to establish a really secure ground link. Also tragedies like the Germanwings crash show why it's important to have two people up there. Drones and UAVs are great for doing some military or civilian missions but Not for airliners. My 2 cents.
7) What do you do while you are flying? Are you constantly sharp and checking your dashboard or is it ok to relax a little by listening to music?
I do a lot of shorter flights less than 2 hours so there isn't a ton of down time but I talk to the other person about things other than work or maybe read for a little bit at a time. If I get too engrossed in something else I miss radio calls or become a crummy pilot.
8) Why did you become a pilot and what pushed you to investigate a career in aviation?
airplanes always had a weird and constant pull for me.
9) Do you regret becoming a pilot? If you were to go back in time, would you still want to become a pilot when you get older?
Wouldn't trade it for anything. I was a B and C student most of the time because that took little effort. Aviation was the only thing I was disappointed if I didn't get 100%.
10) What were some of the biggest surprises (good and bad) that you encountered as an airline pilot?
The schedule can be amazing or horrible. You have to take the good with the bad, sometimes you're in training on a new airplane and don't see you family for 6 weeks or you miss birthdays and holidays. Other times you'll lie to your neighbors instead of telling them how little you work. This job can take from you but it can also give.
11) What recommendations would you give to a 16 year old to help him become a pilot if he hasn't had any experience flying a plane?
Take a discovery flight at a local airport with a good instructor, most pilots are hooked quick.
Thanks you so much for your answers, you don't know how much these answers will help! Happy holidays and sorry that this post was so long!
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
