blaquehawk99

Greetings ladies and Gentlemen. I have a ton of questions and I hope all of you will chime in and offer some answers, guidance and suggestions. Right now I am currently in the Army and I will retire in about 12 to 18 months. I am a Sergeant First Class (E-7) and I am essentially a Network Engineer with all of the necessary certifications to retire from the Army and make fantastic money. However, I want to fly. I live on Camp Humphreys in South Korea, right next to the Airfield and I watch pilots flying helicopter and fixed wing aircraft all day and all night. That's what I want to do with the rest of my life. I have a few hours of flight time and I have enjoyed every second of my measly 37 hours of training. I don't have a family and I've been through four combat tours, three hardship tours, and two humanitarian tours, so quality of life won't be an issue as long as I get to snowboard in the winter and ride my gixxer in the summer. I'll be retired, so low pay in the short term won't be an issue. I am willing to fly anytime and anyplace. I have read “The Truth About the Profession” by John Smith and I even wrote him an e-mail asking to clarify his positions; he wrote back and gave me some wonderful insights into the airline industry. I remain unperturbed by the bad and the ugly.

So here's the plan: Finish my PPL this summer and spend the remaining time I have left in the Army building to at least 100 hrs (with the Osan Aero Club hopefully). When I begin my transition leave/TDY to retire I will go to ATP. I chose ATP because of their 100 day PPL thru CFI/CFII/MEI program with 275 hr. I'll have 130 days of leave and TDY so I will still be paid while training. Here where it gets complicated: because I want to be a dual rated pilot I intend to got to Hillsboro Aviation in Portland and Portland Community College to do my helicopter add ons using my GI Bill. While there I will also be a fixed-wing CFI/CFII/MEI part time in the mean time to build time (alliteration aside...). If everything works out the way I plan, when I am finished at PCC I should have 1500 TT with all of the other minimums to be hired and be debt free. BTW feel free to troubleshoot this plan. It is at this point that I am not sure what to do next. Meaning, do I go the Airline route and start flying for a regional, or do I go to a part 135 operation, or do I go into law enforcement as federal, state, or local? I know there are pros and cons in every decision and that the economy might make some of my decisions for me. My ultimate goal is not necessarily to become a big bird captain at a legacy (though that would be nice), but to fly for a living, however meager it may be. I have spent time combing through this forum and I have found some general answers to general questions and those spawned some specific questions I have not found answers for yet. I am looking for “food for thought” so to speak. I know that the answers to my questions will be highly dependent on the individual and his or her circumstances, but that’s what I'm looking for; individual experiences. In any case, here are my questions:

For a regional F/O:
How much time do you spend on reserve vs. actually flying in the first and second years? Do you get to fly the the 75 hrs. per month I've read about? Is it more or less time flying?

For a regional Captain:
How long did you spend as a F/O before you became a Captain? When you were an F/O did you start with the minimum times required or did you have more or less? Has the quality of life stabilized enough for you to consider staying with a regional for the remainder of your career?

For Major/Legacy/LCC Captains and F/O's:
How long were you at a regional before you earned a F/O seat? What do you think got you the job? i.e. Total time, time on type, networking, good looks with a refreshing personality, or some combination of factors? How much time did you spend as a F/O before you became a Captain?

For part 135, corporate, charter, or anyone else not law enforcement or Airlines, both fixed-wing and/or rotor:
I have read about what Airnet does, the hours their pilots keep, the pay their Captains receive, and how long until I could reasonably expect to earn a Captains seat with them. Does anyone have any personal experiences they would like to share about Airnet or similar operations? For everyone else, what do you do?Do you like what you do? Are you just building time to get to a major or is this your career? Do you think your quality of life is better where you are than at an Airline?

Are there any dual rated pilots flying both fixed-wing and rotor for the same company? What does your company do? How much of each do you do?

For law enforcement pilots:
If you fly for the local police department did you absolutely have to spend time as a beat cop before you could fly? Are there any PD's that don't require beat cop/ ground trooper time?

If you are/were a CBP pilot how do you like your job? Did you get the job with the minimum required hours posted on USAJobs.gov or did you have more or less time? Did you have more rotor time than fixed-wing? Do you think veterans preference helped you get the job?

I asked these questions because of my age and the uncertainty of the economy. I don't think I have enough time to jump around from job to job before committing to a path. I am leaning towards a path that leads to the majors.

Any information, or advice you give will be appreciated.
Thank You in advance for any and all input.

rickair7777

Congrats on making it to the finish line. Having either a military retirement or guard/reserve gig is tremendously helpful financially as you slug through the entry level.

But don't be too eager to fly for food so as to allow airline executives to make bank off your back...since there are plenty of people in aviation who actually have to feed their families on airline pay and they won't appreciate that attitude at all. I've known several airline sim instructors who have absolutely no mercy for wealthy career changers (and yes you'll be wealthy by regional airline standards, where foodstamps is the norm).

Your military motivation and can-do attitude will serve you well, but you are no longer working towards a higher purpose...you are working to get compensated, and if you get to do something you enjoy, bonus. At least avoid the worst bottom-feeders, if you do that you should be able to make $40K after a year or two and hopefully have some QOL.

Unless you have a rich uncle, pick one FW or RW, don't try to do both at this time. Exception only if you want to work for CBP, are young enough (less than 40), meet all their qualifications, and can get the needed flight experience in time. You're probably too old to have a shot at CBP.

Also if at all possible see if you can do some part-time work as a NE...it might come in real handy to keep that skillset warm on the back burner.


You need to figure that out but not necessarily today.

If you want to do airlines, go the regional route. 135 pilots do get hired by the majors, but it takes them longer to build the time and their odds are not as good for several reasons the biggest of which is they don't meet many airline pilots. Networking is vital in aviation, and regional FO's typically get to know many CAs who move on to majors.

135 is a completely different lifestyle, most career military folks would prefer airlines to 135.

If you want to do LE, better do your research...there are strict age limits for federal LE pilots. State/local agencies are more open to older folks but typically you have to get hired as a cop and work three years or so on the ground before you can apply to fly. Even then they often have very long waiting lists, like 15+ years...plenty of cops have pilot licenses.

If you go airlines, shoot for the majors. Regionals are no longer a reliable career option (if they ever were).


Given the current industry movement, at most regionals you should be on reserve less than a year. You get about 75-ish hours to stay home even if they never call you. How much you get called depends on airline, equipment, staffing, domicile, and seniority. It can vary from all the time to never. Reserve almost always will involve less actual flying time since you will be picking up scraps here and there and often doing deadheads to/from trips.

It doesn't matter, past performance in no way predicts future results. It could anywhere from 18 months to ten+ years, depending on the airline, industry, and economy. Probably closer to 3-4 years in the immediate future.

I had more than ATP mins, which is now the requirement anyway.

QOL is pretty good. The pay is totally insufficient unless you have outside sources of income (I do). The problem is that the majors can (and will) take your flying away and give it to a bottom-feeder as soon as too many CA's get too senior. They have gotten more aggressive about this lately, including shutting down regionals with older pilot groups. Very senior regional CA's have been starting over as FO's at other regionals...no thanks.


Those are going to be niche jobs, primarily in LE. Any civilian operations that dual-rate will be few and far between.

I've never heard of any, and there's a good reason for that. I imgine you could find a small PD somewhere that just bought a helo and has no one to fly it if you look hard enough.

Fluglehrer

Good luck with your plan. If you decide to work at Hillsboro, you could instruct at their new Prineville location, or at Troutdale. Either would put you close to snowboarding (Mt Hood for Troutdale and Mt. Bachelor for Prineville) and great curvy backroads for the Suzuki.

I think you would fly enough with them to build hours quickly, but trying to get the helo ratings at the same time might be burning the candle at both ends, and might hamper your performance as a fixed-wing instructor just due to the demands on your time...wouldn't leave any time for the snow or the curvy roads.

Thanks for your service and hope all goes well with your training. Enjoy one last plate of Bulgogi before you leave the ROK.

Packrat

Forget about RW. The long term money is in FW.

FlyAstarJets

First off, Thank you for your service Hawk.

Rick has it right. Choose one and stick with it. I would also recommend FW. RW can be added later when you have that dream job. Stay focused on the prize.

I would only add get your CFII MEI as quickly as possible. Live at the FOB. This will ultimately save you cash, and time, in the long run. Try to get on at a flight school at a college 141 program. Honestly I would look south to FL or maybe out west. You want to be where the flying is more consistent with regards to WX (read less cancelations, build time quickly. Make sure the FBO 141 program has a thriving ME program and get yourself ME students. When you hit 1000 hrs, start pumping out resumes. And always network. Your students and co workers today might be your recommendation tomorrow. Don't be afraid to hit up job fairs. The trick here is to reach Min quals and start applying for that next level as quickly as possible. Getting in to your dream job as young as you can is key here for longevity and seniority.

Good luck!! Sounds like you have a great plan just hone it in a little and stay focused. Don't be deterred and have fun

JamesNoBrakes

It sounds like you are determined to be an airline pilot. May think about re-wording the title to the thread. You don't have to be an airline pilot to fly.

rickair7777

Oh yeah, you WILL need a 4-year degree for major airlines and the better 135/91 jobs. Also for federal LE. You could use the GI Bill and attend a 4-year university aviation program and get your ratings and degrees together. Or you could knock out the ratings, get a regional job and then start chipping away at a distance-learning degree. People who want to sell you flight training will tell you that no degree is required, but they're lying.

Not sure if the degree is a big deal for RW.

Also, flight training customers (students) are all by definition first-time buyers. For this reason, the flight training industry is a magnet for con artists...assume that anyone in sales/management is a crook. Don't believe anything they say about career progression or job opportunities. They'll tell you that you don't need a degree, that regionals are great career jobs, that you'll upgrade in 12 weeks, etc, etc. A good technique to determine when they're lying is to carefully watch their lips...if the lips are moving, yup they're lying.

jumppilot71

To the OP. I was in almost the exact situation as you. I spent 3/4 of my Army time in the Infantry and the last of my 21 years in special operations. My only goal through out was the pay for flight school and fly for an airline. It's really the reason I stayed in, until I had enough cash to pay for everything. My dad was a Captain at a major and the short story is that as I was about to start college and flight school at the end of my senior year, the airline went bad and I had to do something. For me, it was join the Army.

I finally saved enough to pay for all of my flight school and time building for my commercial. I ETS'd at 14 years, finished flight school, got a job flying skydiver's and ended up flying for Comair. Well, we all know what happened there and I ended up going back in the Army. Yes, I did try to get hired elsewhere and I did. It was with Mesaba but the class date never happened because they didn't get the aircraft they were supposed to back in 2008. So I reinlisted, deployed some more and then came back this year. You can do it. You sound like you have a passion for it so it is without a doubt possible.

As far as Rick's opinion on college for all of those jobs. Yes, it is a good idea to have a degree and there's no disputing that. It is, however, not necessary depending on your background and it hasn't stopped me from any of the jobs you mentioned.

blaquehawk99

Thank you all for your support and answers.
First I would like to clear some things up about the GI Bill. There are multiple versions of it that can be used to pay for flight training. For those of you out there that can use them, you must choose wisely or you face the prospect of a lot of out of pocket costs and wasted time and effort.

You can go to any part 141 certified school using the Montgomery GI Bill or the Post 911 GI Bill. The difference is this: the Post 911 GI Bill will pay for 100% of training except for the PPL, you will not however, be able to receive the housing allowance or book stipends. The Montgomery GI Bill will only pay 60% of your costs for flight training, again except for the PPL, and there is no housing allowance or book stipend. In this instance the Post 911 GIB is probably the best choice and fastest choice.

With the Post 911 GI Bill you can go to a College Aviation program with an integrated flight program; it will pay 100% of tuition and fees for flight training including the PPL as long as it is apart of the program, and you will receive the housing allowance at the E-5 with dependents rate based on location(capped this year at $2845) and a book stipend.....go ahead and read that again...I'll wait...Yeah! I was shocked too! One caveat to that: when winter, spring, and summer breaks come along you will not receive the housing allowance for the weeks you're not in class. I don't know how the Montgomery GI Bill stacks up in this situation.

BTW, if a flight school is only part 61 and not part 141 your GI bill will not work for you there. ATP as far as I can tell is not a part 141 school, besides they've already told me that I cannot use my VA benefits there.

For those of you who went to a vocational program like ATP or NAA, what were your experiences? Would you recommend it? Did you instruct to build time? Did you instruct at the same school you went to? If you didn't instruct to build time what did you do?

For those who went to college what school did you go to? Is it reasonable to hold down a full load and instruct on the side? If you didn't instruct while you were in school did you instruct afterwards?

Personally I intend to build time by instructing with maybe a season banner towing.

Thanks again for all of your time and input.

rickair7777

For those who are eligible for both programs, it's important to understand the distinctions.

MGIB doesn't stack up...definitely post-9/11 is the way to go here, especially if you don't have a degree (lack of degree is a handicap, and will disqualify you from all the best jobs). Honestly there are few better deals in life than getting paid to go to college and get flight training in the bargain.

Re. summer break...if summer sessions are available, you can just work straight through if you want to keep the allowance coming.

Correct.