Yoda2

Although he did need a healthy dose of reality; I think we've beat the kid up enough. He probably feels worse right now than we could make him feel anyway. The problem nowadays is generally two fold. These kids are not receiving a proper introduction to aviation. This is because there are not enough oldtimers/experienced pilots hanging around the airport, dispensing advice to these kids anymore. No one is telling them how important PIC time is or that it is still a good idea to know how to fly an NDB approach or hold or to get your CFI or to do a W&B in 90 seconds. It is difficult for them to perform their due dilligence as they largely do not know what questions to ask. We need to be proactive with these kids and supply them with the information they need to make an informed decision about whether or not to even enter this field. Recently I attempted to play a game of "What If" to a student, He did not understand and thought I was picking on him. Years ago when the flight schools were very busy we used to do this all the time and learned a great deal from it. Sometimes challenging each other as we passed in a hallway. The other issue is the advent of the regionals. With the regionals reaching critical mass the puppy mills exploded. Cranking out newbies with the bare minimum, legal, qualifications. They have to trust someone so they trust that the school will take care of them. The schools are not taking care of them or looking out for their best interests. It is a whole different deal than the situation that many of us learned to fly in. The regionals have created a new "Norm". This results in a great disservice to the student and the industry in general. This is why we have this kid and thousands like him in the same boat and thinking 1500 hours is "great experience"... Lets spend more than 5 minutes with these kids and help them. Give them real career guidance so they are properly informed and know what to expect. I love to promote aviation but I will be the first one to tell someone they might want to choose an alternate path. I flew with a person who was a terrible pilot. We came to the conclusion that they probably should not fly, at all! They were however very intelligent and went on to a great career as an air traffic controller.

JamesNoBrakes

Well, as a pilot, that's probably downright irresponsible and dangerous. Are you man enough to go out there and crash an airplane due to fatigue and exhaustion? $850/mo in just loans is pretty steep and leaves little room for anything else. It's not totally unlivable if you actually have a job at the time, but if not, it's pretty daunting proposition, even with multiple jobs. It takes money to make money, whether it's to move to a new job or area that would allow you to hold those jobs, maybe one that allows you to utilize public transportation and make it possible, or whatever it is. I can see how getting furloughed could get you "stuck". Whether we want to believe it or not, this can happen. At some point you might not be able to make the payments because you got furloughed and you don't have that money saved up because you are a new pilot. How do you pay for tickets to interviews? How do you buy suits? How do you pay for hotels? Maybe his is where the evil government comes in to help people back on their feet in a way that is only trying to help them find work and not support them, I don't know. One thing I've tried to do is to choose jobs where I would be ok if I had to wait there longer than I "planned". I've chosen these jobs based on their stability and ability to keep my employed. For this reason, I got out of the airline business. Regional airlines change too much and the industry has collapsed in terms of the way it used to work. That reasoning has worked out well, if my original plans did not exactly. Now that regionals are becoming the job you make your career at when they were intended to be just a stepping stone, things have changed and are in constant flux. The airline that is here today may not be here tomorrow and your pension/retirement will likely be nonexistant. Many of the legacy pilots chiming in never had to deal with this, in fact if they did, they'd still be at the regionals. They may have lost retirement or pension, but were able to get back on with another major airline down the road and had enough time and experience to pick up other flying easier, although I know this is not true in every case! Plenty of them still got screwed bad by bankruptcy and mergers.

Here's the real trick, you have to branch out past flying. I'd recommend everyone do this. It makes the flying you do all the more special, and you can certainly still do it, either by renting, owning your own plane eventually, or jobs that do utilize your flying skills/ability that are just not 100% flying. You do this by getting degrees in different areas, advanced degrees, doing research, being multi-disciplined, and so on. No one can blame this guy for trying to be "super-pilot", and if offered a job in a 737 or something else big and fast, we'd be stupid not to take it 99% of the time. Who wouldn't skip being a regional pilot if they could? Did the military guys skip this? Who cares? He didn't know the realities of the industry, and there was no reliable way to know this. It's not commonly known before you get into the industry or well into school that you have to start back out at the "bottom" so many times, that there are such things as SIC types, that you don't earn $100,000 in less than 5 years, and so on. There needs to be accountability with the school and loan provider, in addition to the person we always try to hold accountable, the student that took the loan. While it's good to do this as much as possible, we are talking about a kid and parents that are often not told the real information and data about the industry. Should we ruin this person's life because someone else lied to them? It's a literal vacuum of information out there in many cases and it's easy to make a flashy website that completely contradicts anything negative that you might hear. Plenty of ponzi scheme and fraudulent investment cases out there that eventually end up with someone doing time in jail. Although that might not always be necessary, there needs to be more accountability too.

I say make someone pay back the money until there is no way they possibly can, and then look at it on a case-by-case basis to see if the person is making the reasonable efforts to do so (which is different than the minimal effort to get by). If not, they get rejected and ordered to pay, penalties, etc. If so, then we need to find out why this really happens and stop it from happening. Trying to fool college kids and old people out of money is big business!

galaxy flyer

Yoda is bang on the problem. When I was in college, learning to fly, (yes, washing, waxing and gassing planes weekends), rainy days were the chance to listen to airline captains, the local CFI who was trying to get hired and eminence gris who held forth aviation wisdom. I could work a weekend and get a an hour of dual instrument. Now, where does anyone go for that kind of education. Well, maybe here, but it's not real.

GF

JamesNoBrakes

And I would ask this:

It takes 7 years to rebuild credit after declaring bankruptcy. If there is not a reasonable expectation of being able to pay off the bill in 7 years, why would you ever offer it/take it? That is what both the lender/school AND the lendee should have to answer. If graduates aren't meeting that timeline, it should be tracked an available to anyone who is considering the school and career path.

Loans aren't a bad thing, but it's basically using money you will have later to pay for something now, and it will always cost significantly more by doing it that way due to interest. These factors mean it is inherently dangerous. There has to be a reasonable expectation that it will pay off. The 7/7 way is a good measure IMO to gauge that.

TonyC

Kid? He claims to have a degree ("from the Business field") and 10 years of flying experience -- doesn't sound like a kid to me.

Of course, his degree didn't teach him the difference between mislead and misled, or core and corps, or how to avoid taking on too much debt. Maybe he didn't really get a degree.


And he sure sounds whiny like a kid.


Maybe I misjudged him. I took him for an adult.






.

ORDCRJ

Thanks the the few to took a break from beating me up to actually offer some helpful advice.

See Tony and MemBrain the problem is that I am actually "being a man" and paying for my loans unlike a great amount of my fellow pilots. I do want to pay I really do but the thing is I cant. When it comes to paying a mortage or paying a student loan im going to pick the mortage sorry if thats not being man enough.

James, thank you for the 7/7 point of view becasue at this point its not going to be paid off in 7 years and that just might be the best option.

JohnBurke

How many jobs are you working presently?

block30

I hope prospective professional pilots are reading this thread. Six figure debt is real-I've met many with debt ranging from 60k-200k. This is life changing debt. This kind of debt will follow you around for decades.

Think rationally not emotionally about your future. The flight schools (generally speaking) want you to think with your emotions to separate you from your money. Flight schools are looking for customers to generate more $$$, period. Be smart!!

Just like how the Flight Schools and Training subforum "Considering a Career? Read this!" is stickied-I think some of the threads asking "How do I discharge my ridiculous flight training debt" should be stickied.

rev4life03

My pilot buddies were questioning me for going in to the air guard as enlisted aircrew instead of just finishing my ratings. Now as they start to see their student loan bills come in, well, let's just say I know one who is strongly considering that now..I almost went 80,000 in debt for this but backed out.

block30

I am enlisted in the Air Guard too. I am a few years behind my age group due to basic, tech school, and umteen deployments, but when I finished training I got my CFI, II, and MEI with money in the bank and in my Roth IRA. Run on sentence?