CareerChangeRN

I am a newcomer to this forum and in fact, I have not even started this "new career" yet, but I am doing my research so as not to enter this venture blindly (if I ever do) .

However, I am posting because I am confused. You complain that the flight school mislead you, but aren't all places like that? You don't recruit pilots by telling them how much they will earn on the first few years, if they even manage to land a job in the first place. You don't recruit pilots by showing them the paperwork they have to fill out. You don't recruit pilots by telling them of the near-death experiences of other pilots due to weather, maintenance, or other issues. It will be like advertising a flight school during a commercial break from a crash investigation program.

And then you say that you left the school "not fully trained and able to earn a living," and lack 100 hours flight time, yet you say you have been in aviation for 10 years. How did you get to earn $64/hour if you are not fully trained? How is $64/hour "not earning a living"? Did the school close it's doors on you? Or is the course supposed to run for more than 10 years?

I do not mean to be rude or to look down on you and I am genuinely confused with your post so I hope you can help me by clearing up those points. I am hoping to enter this field soon but I want to know the "lessons from others" so that I know what pitfalls to avoid.

Yoda2

Since when do you need 1500 Hrs. to fly freight? Last I new it was 135 IFR Mins. which includes 1200 Hrs...

usmc-sgt

Too bad, so sad.

No sympathy from me. Get a job, get three jobs..I don't care about your debt. You had no problem taking on the debt in the first place.

JohnBurke

Really? They'd have to be bloody idiots. A quarter of a million dollars to get a commercial pilot certificate and a CFI?

How is it you've fallen in with such misguided and foolish company?

First of all, what kind of idiot would fork out thirty grand to get a flight instructor certificate? You could nearly buy a damn airplane for that.

Yes, you thought you'd skip to the head of the line, bypass gaining elementary experience (including pilot in command experience) and run before you could walk. Now you don't have the qualifications to open the door, and you're crying in your beer. Guess what? Time to go back, flight instruct, and earn your stripes instead of trying to buy your way to the front of the pack. The rest of us earned our way. Why not you?

What would I have done? Exactly what I did do, which is not at all what you did. I went to work spraying fields, later doing flight instruction, towing gliders, flying skydivers, giving flight instruction, towing banners, doing aerial photography, performing grand canyon tours, flying air ambulance, doing back country passenger and cargo work, flying freight, and a host of other duties.

When I did instruction, I jumped into it with both feet, taking apart an airplane and reassembling it in a mall as part of a display to garner students, towing an airplane through the longest parade in the country to advertise the services of the school FBO/school where I worked, etc. I'd been flying commercially, primarily in ag and other duties, for a number of years before getting to that point, and at no time did I ever try to get out of gaining valuable experience in order to cut to the head of the pack.

Obviously these are things you didn't do, and now you have no experience, no flight time, and are blaming the world for your own decisions. Own them. Nobody else will.

Nobody else will pay for them, either.

Thirty grand for a flight instructor certificate? Really? In what? A Learjet?

You have "great experience?" You don't even have 1,500 hours. Whereas only 250 hours of pilot in command experience are required for the ATP and you say you need more than 100 hours of PIC time, that means you don't even have 150 hours of PIC time (how did you ever make it through your commercial certificate??), and you call that "great experience?" You've got a much more inflated opinion of yourself than any employer is going to have.

You don't need an ATP before anybody will touch you. You don't need an ATP to have an aviation career, period. Perhaps you're so short sighted that all you can see is an airline seat, and if so, that's a sad thing. My solution is nothing. I don't have a solution for you. Your problem at this stage isn't your loan, and it isn't your experience. It's your attitude. If you're foolish enough to think that gaining a CFI will cost thirty grand, and if your focus is so narrow that all you see before you are airlines, then you've got a problem. If you keep blaming that problem on everyone else, you've got an even bigger problem, don't you?

You do.

What you think is fair is irrelevant, and doesn't change the amount of the loan which you obtained, and which you promised to repay. What you think is reasonable is also irrelevant. Now is not the time to make that call. Before you agreed to the loan was the time, and that time is over.

You were sold a "bill of goods?" You were given flight training. Apparently not to your satisfaction, but if you paid a hundred thirty grand for flight training and know others who paid a quarter of a million, you're one of the suckers born every minute, and come very close to deserving to be bilked out of whatever could be gained from you. Who pays that kind of money for a basic pilot certification? Fifty grand should have got you there easily. Seventy five would have got you there in style. For one thirty you could have done all your ratings in helicopters and fixed wing, and you'd have really been marketable...and you could have completed a mechanic certificate (A&P) at the same time and really come out ahead. What on earth were you thinking, and where did you go that you paid such a ridiculous sum of money?

Did you do no research before signing on the dotted line? Didn't you check it out, or were you so anxioius to run to the head of the line that you simply signed for the money and took the training? You didn't seem to have any problem with this when you took the training, did you? Who's to blame for your ignorance in the matter? The person who gave you the loan, or you, the person who signed for it and must repay it? You can blame the other guy all you want, but he's not the one who will end up repaying the loan. Just you. All you.

The person responsible is the person repaying the loan. You. No need to look elsewhere for blame. Own it all. It's yours.

Mate, you haven't even scratched the surface on paying your dues, and absolutely you're talking about throwing in the towel. You've got no experience. You've got no background. You've been a copilot. You've got no PIC experience. Ten years of copilot experience, apparently. You got furloughed. Boo-hoo. Welcome to the club. Welcome to aviation. Get over it.

You preflighted an airplane in ten degree weather, and it had a whopping 19 seats? That must have been exhausting. And at four in the morning, too? You should write a book.

Heads of state? Were they heavier than other people, and did they make the flight much more difficult? Was it a death-defying, adventurous experience for which you'll get the congressional medal of honor? Or was it really just a flight in which you were a copilot, unable to upgrade because you don't have enough flight experience to have a basic pilot certification.

I gave a flight review to a gentleman a few days ago who flies about a thousand to twelve hundred hours a year; when he's busy in the winter he averages around 40 to 80 landings a day. At the moment, he's worth about five hundred dollars a flight hour for one of his work assignments (same as me). I don't hear him complaining, and yes, he works in the freezing cold, the blazing heat, and makes anything you've done in your short lived "career" look like a luxury vacation. He's happier than a pig in stink, can fly the wings of a box of oatmeal, and lives and breathes aviation. But you've preflighted at four in the morning on a cold day, so you've certainly been there and done that, and all the world is to blame for your troubles. Got it.

Less than a hundred fifty hours of pilot in command experience in ten years and you're giving it up, can't take it any more, goodbye cruel world, taa-taa mankind. You've really taken a step back and thought this through? Stop making excuses. They're like rectums; everyone has one, and if you haven't heard it already, a wise man once said that justification is the narcotic of the soul. Presently you're running right at addict level. Cut it out.

Sixty four bucks an hour. Wow. You'd hit the big time, hadn't you? In only ten years? Guess what. You may need to go get some basic pilot in command experience now. Sorry you made poor career decisions, but now is a good time to make some good ones. You decided not to get your basic certification. Now is as good a time as any to correct that, and if you try really hard, you can probably find a way to do it for far, far less than thirty grand. You may need to work a second job. Scratch that. You'll almost certainly need to work a second job. Welcome to reality. Are you too good to do that? You've got too much valuable experience in your background to lower yourself to that level? Not willing to go out and do what it takes? Are you entitled to a higher wage, or to just one job, or to something that pays better? Are you entitled to something the rest of us are not?

Not really interested, thanks. If it's Omni, I was offered an interview. I turned it down. Other interests. I'm sure someone will happily fill the seat, however...and so what? How many jobs have you worked in aviation? Throw out a big number. Impress me. I very much doubt you can, nor do I think you can compete. You'll need to go through a lot more doors and gain a lot more experience to have a leg to stand upon to impress. You'll need a much better attitude. So you left a job. So what? Go get another. That's life. Stop blaming the world, take your obligations upon your own shoulders, and move on. Just like the rest of us.

rickair7777

Not much sympathy here either.

$130K is a lot of change for flight training...I sure as hell hope you got a degree too, and even then it's too much unless it's a Brand Name school and a good degree.

Two issues here...

1) Your aviation career never got started if you got <1500 hours in ten years.

2) BK is probably not going to work for student loans. That's between you, the bank, and the government...the school normally has nothing to do with it. If the government let broke graduates default on student loans, all the lazy unethical turds would BK the day they graduated and of course no bank would ever issue another student loan.

You might have a faint, remote chance of legal action against the school if you can a) somehow prove fraud and, b) the statute of limitations has not run out. Need a lawyer for that of course, and he's probably not going to take this one on contingency...

You're right about one thing...plenty of other folks have student debt. It's just harder to pay off in aviation. I'd probably go get a real job, whatever pays best, live cheap and pay off your debt. You can probably take care of that in five years of ramen. Then decide what to do with the rest of your life...who knows, maybe even aviation.

bozobigtop

I love JohnBurke's solution in which I will add businesses chasing debtors to no end were aided by the Bush administration's consumer laws. Find a way to pay your debt or risk a hard life!

ORDCRJ

Mr. Burke, you seem to be a very crusty and bitter old pilot. You sir are exactally what I hope to avoid being by leaving aviation.

Sgt., im sure the core appreciates your helpful advice. You sir, sorry I mean Sgt (not an officer yet?), are another reason why people are flocking to aviaiton. I appreciate your suggestion to get a job. With the number of posts you have on here are you employed by airline pilot central or do you and Mr. Burke enjoy commenting on the misfortunes of others?

To answer a few of the other questions yes, I do have a college degree that is (thank god) in the field of Business so I am looking for a career change. To the newcomer here are a few answers to your questions and a few others....

Yes, I have 10 years in aviation and do not have 1500 hours. I am typed in 4 aircarft though. How did this happen? Well I was hired (or skipped the line as Mr. Burke would say) and sat reserve at a very very small regional for 3 years and left with about 500 hours. But while I was there I was also approached to be a ground school instructor becasue of my past experiences. I was told it would enhane my resume so I did it. When they furloughed me I found employment at another slightly bigger regional where I was there for 4 years until I was furloughed as well. While I was there due to being on reserve and asked again to be a ground school instuctor I left with about 500 hours. Then as luck would have it a charter company hired me to fly for them with very very low time. It paid $64 an hour (with a 60 hour a month guarr.) and I didnt think turning down a chance to fly a Boeing all over the world was a good career move so I accepted the job. Right after I finished OE and consolidation I was approached again to be a ground school insturctor, sim instructor, and first officer check airman. I was told this would enhance my resume (yes again) So, I did and became a managment pilot (Sgt will hate that this college boy had "power" as he would see it over little poges but I did) So, a majority of my time there was spent in the classroom, sim, and observation rides. Then, while I was in the training department we added another Boeing airframe to our certificate and I recieved a SIC type for that as well so I could instruct on that too. Now, at $64 an hour I could barely afford my student loan payments, house payment (Sgt not all of us are tough marines and can camp in tents), food and family expenes( Mr. Burke may not have this problem as his crusty attitude im surely is appealing to the opposite sex) Now, another layoff has happened to me and I find that the only way I can get hired my most airlines is to have my ATP which I do not qualify for because I lact the PIC time.

NewCommer I hope this helps you out id be more than happy to help you with your career choice. Flying is a fun and rewarding career but it is very expensive to get started and very difficult on the home life.

Now I expect to hear back from Mr. Burke and Sgt. I never blamed anyone I simply reached out to my "brotherhood" of fellow pilots and found my hand bit off.

NewComer this is another lesson to you. Most pilots are happy to help out "just enough" but if they feel that you are more qualified, or didnt do it the "right way", or perhaps they werent held enough as a child they will turn their backs on you.

Once again any HELPFUL advice would be appreciated.

galaxy flyer

Actually, in his crusty fashion, Burke has it right. By your own admission, tried to "get ahead" by doing things all out of step. FIRST, you need real flight experience and PIC time, THEN, become an instructor/check airman (what's a FO check, sounds like SAC). It looks like you trusted those who told you how to get ahead without the real hard slog. I don't understand how you got as far as you did. BTW, you don't have 4 Types, if you don't have an ATP.

Now, if you want to fly, get the PIC time, whatever it takes, get an ATP, get hired at a regional and move on, paying whatever you can. Flying has no place for the inept, the uncommitted, or the casual. There is ONLY one way to where you hoped to be--no shortcuts. Luckily, the shortcuts didn't end up in a funeral home as so many of my late friends did.

Also, pilots are quite helpful, just don't look like a whiner or someone who is trying to shortcut things. Innumerable pilots have helped me thru the last 35 years, one went out on limb to hire me at 52.



GF

JohnBurke

You're doing a darn good job, because at this stage, you won't be anything before you leave aviation. It would appear you're well on your way to being out the door. Congratulations.

I'm not "old" incidentally, and as for crustiness...you'll have to make that call. I'm ambivalent.

So you're not old and crusty. Good for you. You're also not experienced. Not good for you. You're also full of hot air. Let's explore.

SIC types, or full type ratings? Doesn't really matter of course, without any pilot in command experience in type.

In three years you garnered a whopping 500 hours at a "very small regional" and then because of your past experiences you were hot material for an instructor job? What past experiences? You were the one who wanted to go to the front of the line and skip becoming an instructor because you didn't want to spend thirty grand, remember?

Wow. Very impressive. You're not an instructor, went out of your way not to be, never gained the qualifications and therefore had no experience or background as an instructor, but without having the quals to be a PIC (and having not even a hundred fifty hours of PIC experience) and lacking the ability to apply for an ATP, you were the hot ticket to be all those things. How the angels must have sang. Right off the bat, no experience, and you're the new sim instructor and a "first officer check airman?"

What the hell is a "first officer check airman?" They were really tapping the cream of the experience crop, weren't they?

This really has nothing to do with the thread in question, but as you brought it up, I'm married and it's just not an issue, thanks. What the opposite sex might think is so far removed from my day to day concerns that it could quite possibly be the farthest thing from my mind. My wife, I may add, is quite happy. You'll have to take it up with her, and the best of luck to you in that because you're the kind of fodder she eats for breakfast.

Let's boil that sentence down to the readers digest version: "I'm not qualified to do anything." That's why people don't get hired, you see. Attitude or aptitude. You've got an attitude problem, and you lack the most basic qualifications for the job.

Without experience, certification, or qualification, and with your constant blaming of your woes on society in general, sundry flight schools, and the industry at large, it's no wonder you're not employed. Never the less, the way you extol your qualifications and the demand for your skills based on unnamed "past experience," it's a wonder you haven't been called to be CEO or higher by now.

Let's hear it. Why is it that you can't get the experience you need to flying freight or doing other flying? Wife's going to divorce you, you said? You're worried about that, and you're complaining about my ability to attract the opposite sex?

You talk like a youngster. Who really says "Sgt will hate that this college boy had "power" as he would see it over little poges but I did" without sounding like a 14 year old? Your wife didn't know what you did for a living when you were married? Can't handle the ups and downs? Then perhaps you're best getting out. Don't blame your troubles on her, though. Don't blame your troubles on the people who issued your loans. Don't blame your troubles on your flight school.

Nobody is forcing you to quit. It's all you. It's not your wife's fault. It's not the school's fault. It's not the bank's fault. It's you. OWN IT.

This is particularly poignant in light of the fact that the ONLY thing keeping you from having a successful career is YOU. Any reason you can't do what the rest of us have done, and many continue to do? No. It's all you.

Stop whining. Either bail out, or stay in and work harder. Your choice. Nobody is paying your loans off for you. Time to grow up, assume your obligations, and step into the grown-up world. Good luck with that. It may be your biggest challenge yet.

Red Forman

Wow, those are some stupid pilots!