Career advice needed
09-03-2012, 07:28 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 158
My situation: work as a computer tech making roughly $40k a year, travel every day except for weekends, and really tired of the drive 10-15 hours then work all night routine. Always wanted to fly but never had the money for flight school till now. In december I plan on quitting my job to focus fully on getting through flight school. I am 31 years old, single, no kids, and have a bit in savings to get me through the period of not having a job, but will have to take a loan to pay for training which is ok. Ending up at a major airline is not the path I want to take. I would rather get time doing things like jumpers at first, and working towards what I would call my dream job of island hopping---for instance the Maldivian Air Taxi (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/fo...t-drivers.html) would be an example of where I want to end up.
I guess my question is, what would be the best route to get there? I have been looking at various pilot schools but most seem overly expensive, and Im not sure what all qualifications I would need. Im not afraid to spend money but would prefer to get the most benefit from it.
I guess my question is, what would be the best route to get there? I have been looking at various pilot schools but most seem overly expensive, and Im not sure what all qualifications I would need. Im not afraid to spend money but would prefer to get the most benefit from it.
This goes back to what other members on this forum have already suggested: Don't go into debt for your flight training! Yes, money may not be important to your happiness but wait 'till the bank starts demanding their money back while you're pulling in $20K/year. Most of the interest rates for these loans are not exactly flattering so sit down with a calculator and figure out your projected monthly payments, and don't forget your living expenses (realistic ones and not some idealistic, bohemian fantasy).
No bank has ever asked me if I like my job.
If you pay-as-you-go, your downside will be minimized (granted, not eliminated). You don't like your current job and you're daydreaming about escaping. That's fine and I can certainly appreciate that. You need to appreciate its current value to you and see it as a tool to achieving your dream.
09-03-2012, 08:40 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 744 CA
Posts: 4,772
Keep you current job, even if you work a bit less at it. Do your flying on nights and weekends as suggested. Pay AS MUCH as you can as you go. IF after you get your PPL, Instrument, CMEL you still want to pursue flying look at the declining number of jobs to low time pilots and you will have to make a decision whether to pursue those or GET your CFII.
Sky had a career that didnt work out for him for many reasons, some out of his control... others probably just bad luck....either way dont let sky's exagerations scare you...while I am sure things like that happen.... look through his BS. HE has an agenda...one that actually needs a voice... he is just a bit militant.
that said.. in the light of disclosure my trek thru this business is not like what I laid out above... I have a military background so bypassed some of that.
Pursue your dream .. it may work out... it may not.... but at least you wont be left wondering... Oh... Sky... made a decision to be married and have a family on salaries that would not support them... certianly a mistake to avoid.
Good Luck.
Sky had a career that didnt work out for him for many reasons, some out of his control... others probably just bad luck....either way dont let sky's exagerations scare you...while I am sure things like that happen.... look through his BS. HE has an agenda...one that actually needs a voice... he is just a bit militant.
that said.. in the light of disclosure my trek thru this business is not like what I laid out above... I have a military background so bypassed some of that.
Pursue your dream .. it may work out... it may not.... but at least you wont be left wondering... Oh... Sky... made a decision to be married and have a family on salaries that would not support them... certianly a mistake to avoid.
Good Luck.
09-03-2012, 12:08 PM
#13
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
Definitely don't take out any loans. That's like the subclass of people who borrow against their own paycheck at some exorbitant rate, it makes no sense whatsoever, simply foolishness. Take the lessons as you earn. It's a fun occupation in some ways and it suits perpetual bachelors like you and me- but not if you paint yourself into financial corner.
09-03-2012, 02:32 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Posts: 125
Most people here are from middle class american families. They might not know it now but most will want to recreate a similar situation their parents had for themselves in the future.
As such aviation increasingly is not able to produce that life. I can understand a passionate young heart wanting to reach out for something different but most will find that life to be unsuited for their dispositions and desires as adults.
People who do not hold any desire for home, family or a need for financial security should by all means pursue aviation. When they get old they can fill their empty rented apartment with pictures of their aviation conquests that no one else cares about.
Skyhigh
Family, friends, financial security then flying.
As such aviation increasingly is not able to produce that life. I can understand a passionate young heart wanting to reach out for something different but most will find that life to be unsuited for their dispositions and desires as adults.
People who do not hold any desire for home, family or a need for financial security should by all means pursue aviation. When they get old they can fill their empty rented apartment with pictures of their aviation conquests that no one else cares about.
Skyhigh
Family, friends, financial security then flying.
You do make a lot of good points about aviation, your resentment for the industry is perhaps understandable given the hand life delt you. I was reading through another forum (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/le...9-skyhigh.html) and can say I understand more of where you're coming from now.
The picture I gather is you had a career, a company you worked for buckled and you ended your career in aviation to persue some real estate opportunity that worked out for you? I guess I'm trying to think where you would be at as a person if you were somebody who was trying to survive in the real estate industry in poverty and found yourself offered a job in aviation as a legacy airline piot. I guess the point I'm trying to make is every industry has its successes and yet all industries also have a group in poverty and famine. You just seem to me that you happen to be more successful in what you do now than you feel about how successful you were in aviation.
Just by following your line of thinking I've come to conclude that you wouldn't ever take a chance and be a CEO of a company you can start? After all, sure there are CEOs who make it big, but most of them are in failed business after failed business and only make a minimum salary while waiting to start a business that succeeds.
I also find every career field I've met and talked money with (teachers, pilots, police, servers, etc...), honestly I find that they all use the same lines. "I got into this career because I enjoy the field, but the compensation is not in line with the work/risk/responsibility/etc." I think I heard a survey once where over 95% of people in it answered that they feel they would be paid a fair sum if they made roughly 20% more for their work. The survey included people from the 10k income bracket to the 250k income bracket. Honestly I know you talk people away from this industry, but odds are 95% of people who don't go to aviation will still complained that they aren't compensated fairly for their work. I guess I just don't see why pilots think they are alone or so special in that feeling.
You have made career choices and I'm guessing they worked out for you, although it may not be the career or life you dreamed of. Others in aviation are making their career choices and paving their own path. I guess it just amazes me that you stand on the sideline yelling that the rules of the game aren't fair. You got out, you quit the game because you didn't think it could be won. Well I tell you, there are people on the field slaving every day for a reason.
I just have to ask, take money out of the equation. Say you live in a world where money is no object. Would you work at a regional airline today if you could still make the income and have the life that you have now? I mean, go back to the days at Horizon that you describe as so miserable. I have a feeling 99.5% of your entire problem with the state of the industry is strictly and solely about pay. I'd bet you'd commute, work the long days, and spend weeks away from home if you had the same benefits, house, and "quality of life" that you have now.
09-03-2012, 03:51 PM
#15
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Diffrences
BenS,
Flying is not like most careers.
Aviation costs a fortune to get trained and educated. Afterwards it takes a lot of luck and many more years of sacrifice and low wage jobs to get some experience. There are no certainties about your career outcome and very little residual value to the outside world if it does not work out.
Competition is fierce and the career outlook is not so good. Over the last 30 years pilots have consistently lost ground. When I started flight training a domestic 737 captain earned at least twice what they are making now and most had a good retirement package that is now largely gone. Everyone gripes about their job but most don't know what hardship is like a pilot does. Teachers, Doctors and Police usually have stable work rules and government sponsored retirement plans. They earn a fair wage for what they have invested into their careers.
You could blow the price of a starter house getting all your ratings and put an eye out in the garage the next day and it is all for naught. Student loans or the gigantic hole in your investment portfolio will be there to haunt you for many decades to come. Dreams are dreams and the heart wants what it wants but few of us can afford the cost of an aviation career anymore. Life is short. resources are getting hard to come by. Before making such a huge investment you need to be ready to let go of a lot of other things that you might hold dear or make the grown up choice.
Homer Simpson would rather work in a bowling alley but makes the sacrifice to work in the power plant because it pays a livable wage to support the family. The opportunity cost is very high for aviation. Too high for most and getting higher all the time.
If you think I had a difficult time things were easier for me then they will be for pilots starting out today.
Skyhigh
Flying is not like most careers.
Aviation costs a fortune to get trained and educated. Afterwards it takes a lot of luck and many more years of sacrifice and low wage jobs to get some experience. There are no certainties about your career outcome and very little residual value to the outside world if it does not work out.
Competition is fierce and the career outlook is not so good. Over the last 30 years pilots have consistently lost ground. When I started flight training a domestic 737 captain earned at least twice what they are making now and most had a good retirement package that is now largely gone. Everyone gripes about their job but most don't know what hardship is like a pilot does. Teachers, Doctors and Police usually have stable work rules and government sponsored retirement plans. They earn a fair wage for what they have invested into their careers.
You could blow the price of a starter house getting all your ratings and put an eye out in the garage the next day and it is all for naught. Student loans or the gigantic hole in your investment portfolio will be there to haunt you for many decades to come. Dreams are dreams and the heart wants what it wants but few of us can afford the cost of an aviation career anymore. Life is short. resources are getting hard to come by. Before making such a huge investment you need to be ready to let go of a lot of other things that you might hold dear or make the grown up choice.
Homer Simpson would rather work in a bowling alley but makes the sacrifice to work in the power plant because it pays a livable wage to support the family. The opportunity cost is very high for aviation. Too high for most and getting higher all the time.
If you think I had a difficult time things were easier for me then they will be for pilots starting out today.
Skyhigh
09-04-2012, 10:09 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Posts: 125
BenS,
Flying is not like most careers.
Aviation costs a fortune to get trained and educated. Afterwards it takes a lot of luck and many more years of sacrifice and low wage jobs to get some experience. There are no certainties about your career outcome and very little residual value to the outside world if it does not work out.
Competition is fierce and the career outlook is not so good. Over the last 30 years pilots have consistently lost ground. When I started flight training a domestic 737 captain earned at least twice what they are making now and most had a good retirement package that is now largely gone. Everyone gripes about their job but most don't know what hardship is like a pilot does. Teachers, Doctors and Police usually have stable work rules and government sponsored retirement plans. They earn a fair wage for what they have invested into their careers.
You could blow the price of a starter house getting all your ratings and put an eye out in the garage the next day and it is all for naught. Student loans or the gigantic hole in your investment portfolio will be there to haunt you for many decades to come. Dreams are dreams and the heart wants what it wants but few of us can afford the cost of an aviation career anymore. Life is short. resources are getting hard to come by. Before making such a huge investment you need to be ready to let go of a lot of other things that you might hold dear or make the grown up choice.
Homer Simpson would rather work in a bowling alley but makes the sacrifice to work in the power plant because it pays a livable wage to support the family. The opportunity cost is very high for aviation. Too high for most and getting higher all the time.
If you think I had a difficult time things were easier for me then they will be for pilots starting out today.
Skyhigh
Flying is not like most careers.
Aviation costs a fortune to get trained and educated. Afterwards it takes a lot of luck and many more years of sacrifice and low wage jobs to get some experience. There are no certainties about your career outcome and very little residual value to the outside world if it does not work out.
Competition is fierce and the career outlook is not so good. Over the last 30 years pilots have consistently lost ground. When I started flight training a domestic 737 captain earned at least twice what they are making now and most had a good retirement package that is now largely gone. Everyone gripes about their job but most don't know what hardship is like a pilot does. Teachers, Doctors and Police usually have stable work rules and government sponsored retirement plans. They earn a fair wage for what they have invested into their careers.
You could blow the price of a starter house getting all your ratings and put an eye out in the garage the next day and it is all for naught. Student loans or the gigantic hole in your investment portfolio will be there to haunt you for many decades to come. Dreams are dreams and the heart wants what it wants but few of us can afford the cost of an aviation career anymore. Life is short. resources are getting hard to come by. Before making such a huge investment you need to be ready to let go of a lot of other things that you might hold dear or make the grown up choice.
Homer Simpson would rather work in a bowling alley but makes the sacrifice to work in the power plant because it pays a livable wage to support the family. The opportunity cost is very high for aviation. Too high for most and getting higher all the time.
If you think I had a difficult time things were easier for me then they will be for pilots starting out today.
Skyhigh
You cite oppertunity cost being high and return on investment being low. I have a hard time disagreeing with you there, right now I'm almost $80k in debt making $15k a year. But I live with the belief that my income is at the lowest it will ever be and my school debt is the highest it will ever be. This is no doubt the lowest point in my life, but I work happily knowing that through my work, upgrade and other things, my debt will only go down and my income will only go up. This belief is what tells me I've spent the investment, and once my debt is paid off, all income thereafter is return on my investment. No matter how small the return, I have paid the oppertunity cost, so now I'm just trying to live the oppertunity I paid for.
But lets look at industries where oppertunity cost, as you say, is reasonable. I have a hard time looking at government jobs because the government does not at all play by the market rules every other industry plays by. But then again with unfunded pensions, and paying employees salaries with money they don't have, perhaps governments are about primed to go through what airlines went through years ago; drastic cuts in salary and pensions that will never be paid out. But say teachers, get an associates degree and will start at 30k, but most will never get above 80k - ever. Those teachers who do see 6 figures live in cities where 70k is considered the poverty line. Any other private sector job sees even less returns on oppertunity cost. It may not cost a penny to become a bank teller, food server, or pizza hut delivery driver. But when people say regional first officers make less than a pizza delivery driver, they fail to realize one thing. The first officer is making the lowest income he will ever make in his career - the pizza delivery driver on the other hand, is making the most he will ever make in his career. This is assuming no other career or job oppertunities.
So yes, though oppertunity cost is high, potental return on investment is at least there. The only other jobs that offer the chance to retire on a 6 figure salary, most commonly referred to, are doctors or lawyers. Their oppertunity cost is even higher than it takes to be a pilot. And plenty of doctors and lawyers spend that kind of money only to never make it in that career either. But you cited so many jobs that have a lower oppertunity cost, and their salaries will probably never see 6 figures, some may never see half of 6 figures, and some careers that are free to get into allow people a chance to retire never making more than 25k. But even if you never go legacy, retiring at a regional still offers the chance to have a 100k paycheck. That is a chance so few careers offer that, to me, the low return on investment was worth the oppertunity cost.
I think this career sure beats being a teacher with 200 students, a police officer in this world today, or even a firefighter. Even though the oppertunity cost is lower and return on investment is higher in all of these fields. The life risk and/or work environment are all better, in my opinion, in a cockpit than any of the other listed work environments... Man, I type way too much...
09-04-2012, 12:58 PM
#17
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Posts: 64
What I like about your first paragraph is that take the first word, aviation, and substitute it with any private sector job. If you ever want to break 6 figures in any (private sector) job in this country, that career field can easily be used in this category. Again, take aviation and substitue, say, professional acting, doctor, lawyer, business owner, or even politician. The "oppertunity cost" to all of these professions are high. Some require degrees, some years of professional training, and some just luck to get the oppertunity you want. In all of these career feilds, some will wash up a total failure, some quit by choice, some suffer through a lifetime, and a lucky few will make it big in all of these careers and others.
You cite oppertunity cost being high and return on investment being low. I have a hard time disagreeing with you there, right now I'm almost $80k in debt making $15k a year. But I live with the belief that my income is at the lowest it will ever be and my school debt is the highest it will ever be. This is no doubt the lowest point in my life, but I work happily knowing that through my work, upgrade and other things, my debt will only go down and my income will only go up. This belief is what tells me I've spent the investment, and once my debt is paid off, all income thereafter is return on my investment. No matter how small the return, I have paid the oppertunity cost, so now I'm just trying to live the oppertunity I paid for.
But lets look at industries where oppertunity cost, as you say, is reasonable. I have a hard time looking at government jobs because the government does not at all play by the market rules every other industry plays by. But then again with unfunded pensions, and paying employees salaries with money they don't have, perhaps governments are about primed to go through what airlines went through years ago; drastic cuts in salary and pensions that will never be paid out. But say teachers, get an associates degree and will start at 30k, but most will never get above 80k - ever. Those teachers who do see 6 figures live in cities where 70k is considered the poverty line. Any other private sector job sees even less returns on oppertunity cost. It may not cost a penny to become a bank teller, food server, or pizza hut delivery driver. But when people say regional first officers make less than a pizza delivery driver, they fail to realize one thing. The first officer is making the lowest income he will ever make in his career - the pizza delivery driver on the other hand, is making the most he will ever make in his career. This is assuming no other career or job oppertunities.
So yes, though oppertunity cost is high, potental return on investment is at least there. The only other jobs that offer the chance to retire on a 6 figure salary, most commonly referred to, are doctors or lawyers. Their oppertunity cost is even higher than it takes to be a pilot. And plenty of doctors and lawyers spend that kind of money only to never make it in that career either. But you cited so many jobs that have a lower oppertunity cost, and their salaries will probably never see 6 figures, some may never see half of 6 figures, and some careers that are free to get into allow people a chance to retire never making more than 25k. But even if you never go legacy, retiring at a regional still offers the chance to have a 100k paycheck. That is a chance so few careers offer that, to me, the low return on investment was worth the oppertunity cost.
I think this career sure beats being a teacher with 200 students, a police officer in this world today, or even a firefighter. Even though the oppertunity cost is lower and return on investment is higher in all of these fields. The life risk and/or work environment are all better, in my opinion, in a cockpit than any of the other listed work environments... Man, I type way too much...
You cite oppertunity cost being high and return on investment being low. I have a hard time disagreeing with you there, right now I'm almost $80k in debt making $15k a year. But I live with the belief that my income is at the lowest it will ever be and my school debt is the highest it will ever be. This is no doubt the lowest point in my life, but I work happily knowing that through my work, upgrade and other things, my debt will only go down and my income will only go up. This belief is what tells me I've spent the investment, and once my debt is paid off, all income thereafter is return on my investment. No matter how small the return, I have paid the oppertunity cost, so now I'm just trying to live the oppertunity I paid for.
But lets look at industries where oppertunity cost, as you say, is reasonable. I have a hard time looking at government jobs because the government does not at all play by the market rules every other industry plays by. But then again with unfunded pensions, and paying employees salaries with money they don't have, perhaps governments are about primed to go through what airlines went through years ago; drastic cuts in salary and pensions that will never be paid out. But say teachers, get an associates degree and will start at 30k, but most will never get above 80k - ever. Those teachers who do see 6 figures live in cities where 70k is considered the poverty line. Any other private sector job sees even less returns on oppertunity cost. It may not cost a penny to become a bank teller, food server, or pizza hut delivery driver. But when people say regional first officers make less than a pizza delivery driver, they fail to realize one thing. The first officer is making the lowest income he will ever make in his career - the pizza delivery driver on the other hand, is making the most he will ever make in his career. This is assuming no other career or job oppertunities.
So yes, though oppertunity cost is high, potental return on investment is at least there. The only other jobs that offer the chance to retire on a 6 figure salary, most commonly referred to, are doctors or lawyers. Their oppertunity cost is even higher than it takes to be a pilot. And plenty of doctors and lawyers spend that kind of money only to never make it in that career either. But you cited so many jobs that have a lower oppertunity cost, and their salaries will probably never see 6 figures, some may never see half of 6 figures, and some careers that are free to get into allow people a chance to retire never making more than 25k. But even if you never go legacy, retiring at a regional still offers the chance to have a 100k paycheck. That is a chance so few careers offer that, to me, the low return on investment was worth the oppertunity cost.
I think this career sure beats being a teacher with 200 students, a police officer in this world today, or even a firefighter. Even though the oppertunity cost is lower and return on investment is higher in all of these fields. The life risk and/or work environment are all better, in my opinion, in a cockpit than any of the other listed work environments... Man, I type way too much...
That being said though, none of those careers offer the horrendous instability of the airlines. Aviation is one of the only careers I know of that if you get furloughed from a 120k job (and it usually happens at least once), you could in theory, have to start back down at the bottom again at 35k.
Now that's a HUGE opportunity cost
09-04-2012, 03:33 PM
#19
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
The Future
BenS,
Your whole premise is based on a static future. If things stay the same your projections might hold true but aviation is anything but static. Ask the Comair guys about how their plans are going.
The good news about being a Pizza delivery guy is that he has nothing invested into his career. His job is easily replaceable and he is building job skills that might hold value in plenty of other similar fields.
The pilot blows a small fortune on an under preforming career and then has to deliver pizza after sending a long day as a flight instructor. Pay might go up but you could also be kicked to the curb several times in your career. Add up the cost to get trained and educated to the lost years of low wages only to have to start over again and the whole thing gets depressing very fast.
The main issue is that conditions for pilots are not getting any better. You are basing your projections on the industry as it is today. Ten years from now and you will be selling furniture or worse wishing that you were. There is no profit in paying pilots a fair wage. Pressure is downwards on pay and working conditions.
It might work out but it is an incredible risk for the thin promise of ever earning a return on your investment. An expensive long shot with a dim future.
Skyhigh
Your whole premise is based on a static future. If things stay the same your projections might hold true but aviation is anything but static. Ask the Comair guys about how their plans are going.
The good news about being a Pizza delivery guy is that he has nothing invested into his career. His job is easily replaceable and he is building job skills that might hold value in plenty of other similar fields.
The pilot blows a small fortune on an under preforming career and then has to deliver pizza after sending a long day as a flight instructor. Pay might go up but you could also be kicked to the curb several times in your career. Add up the cost to get trained and educated to the lost years of low wages only to have to start over again and the whole thing gets depressing very fast.
The main issue is that conditions for pilots are not getting any better. You are basing your projections on the industry as it is today. Ten years from now and you will be selling furniture or worse wishing that you were. There is no profit in paying pilots a fair wage. Pressure is downwards on pay and working conditions.
It might work out but it is an incredible risk for the thin promise of ever earning a return on your investment. An expensive long shot with a dim future.
Skyhigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 09-04-2012 at 03:49 PM.
09-04-2012, 03:51 PM
#20
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
FedEx, UPS and SWA
The main difference between me and a FedEx guy is that my start up went under. The problem is that there are fewer and fewer good jobs out there all the time.
Thread the needle and get hired by a legacy airline and in five years you too can earn more than a mailman. Not worth it at all from a lifestyle and financial perspective.
Skyhigh
Thread the needle and get hired by a legacy airline and in five years you too can earn more than a mailman. Not worth it at all from a lifestyle and financial perspective.
Skyhigh
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