Disheartened Hopeful
11-02-2009, 07:52 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
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Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 254
Disheartened Hopeful
Hello all, been lurking the site quite often trying to immerse myself in as much information as I can about professional flying. Like everyone, flying is a passion to me. So far I've earned a Bachelor's Degree in Aviation Technologies with a specialization in Advanced Maintenance and Avionics. I'll also soon be a certified A&P. College was great, but I've still got the bug for flying. I'm currently slated to begin flight training in January 2010. After a lot of researching I've found what seems to me to be the best flight school. They've quoted me for PPL-CFII for just under $46,000. 
I'm 23 and have never had more than $1,000 in my bank account at one time. So I know I'm dealing with some serious dough here.
Anyway, after reading thread after thread of angry pilot's who are upset over pay, quality of life, management etc, etc I've just become disheartened over the entire decision. I feel that I'm so far at the bottom of the barrel that I will never find a good flying job. I was very optimistic (yet uninformed) a few months back because my girlfriend introduced me to a friend of the family who is a regional pilot. He feels that if I get through the training and quickly build hours as a CFI he could more than likely have some pull for me with his airline during a 2014 expansion. The only issue there is his airline is, well, "looked down upon" by many people. So the brakes start screeching again. I'm not here to cause a problem, as I'm still mostly ignorant about the entire situation, I just would appreciate honest opinions about how bad it could possibly affect one's young career by making the decision to fly for "said airlines." At a certain point these days it almost seems like you just need to get into the seat, no matter where it may be. It's not fair, but nothing seems to be anywhere right now, aviation or not.
I'd like to venture from that topic however. I guess if anything I'm asking for suggestions on where to go from here. Degree and A&P in hand debt free is where I stand, and it's beginning to seem crazy to go under $46K for a seemingly terrible career path. All I've ever really wanted to is fly, but it's beginning to seem that some things are better left to be desired. What other routes are there besides the Regional Airlines, if any? I guess my ultimate goal would be flying for a Major or flying Business Jets (yeah, who's isn't
). People say the Regional FOs that are flying NOW will never have a chance at those jobs, so my chances must me much lower.
Thanks for any input!
I'm 23 and have never had more than $1,000 in my bank account at one time. So I know I'm dealing with some serious dough here. Anyway, after reading thread after thread of angry pilot's who are upset over pay, quality of life, management etc, etc I've just become disheartened over the entire decision. I feel that I'm so far at the bottom of the barrel that I will never find a good flying job. I was very optimistic (yet uninformed) a few months back because my girlfriend introduced me to a friend of the family who is a regional pilot. He feels that if I get through the training and quickly build hours as a CFI he could more than likely have some pull for me with his airline during a 2014 expansion. The only issue there is his airline is, well, "looked down upon" by many people. So the brakes start screeching again. I'm not here to cause a problem, as I'm still mostly ignorant about the entire situation, I just would appreciate honest opinions about how bad it could possibly affect one's young career by making the decision to fly for "said airlines." At a certain point these days it almost seems like you just need to get into the seat, no matter where it may be. It's not fair, but nothing seems to be anywhere right now, aviation or not.
I'd like to venture from that topic however. I guess if anything I'm asking for suggestions on where to go from here. Degree and A&P in hand debt free is where I stand, and it's beginning to seem crazy to go under $46K for a seemingly terrible career path. All I've ever really wanted to is fly, but it's beginning to seem that some things are better left to be desired. What other routes are there besides the Regional Airlines, if any? I guess my ultimate goal would be flying for a Major or flying Business Jets (yeah, who's isn't
). People say the Regional FOs that are flying NOW will never have a chance at those jobs, so my chances must me much lower. Thanks for any input!
11-02-2009, 08:06 PM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 182
First of all, I don't advise going into $40k+ debt for this career. Why can't you get a job as a mechanic and do it slowly and pay as you go? I think that is the biggest mistake that pilots do is getting a huge loan for a career where the entry level jobs are not paying enough to keep you above water. Find a local FBO and get your private pilot license. You already have your bachelors degree, you don't need a fancy flight school to teach you to fly. You also shouldn't be in a hurry, there are no jobs right now. If you want to become a pilot, do it but find a practical way to get there.
Your girlfriend's friend won't be the only connection to a job. You will meet others as you socialize in the pilot crowd. Apply for whatever airline works for your life. Either you are based close to home, the pay is the highest, or you work the least amount of days. Whatever is the most important to you at the time.
It is a tough time to be in the industry or getting into the industry but who knows how the future will be. Many of the FOs at the regionals will make it to the majors. Not all of them but a good percentage. It just depends on a lot of variables like their age, their hours, and the economy.
I have known a few A&Ps that became mechanics and they are really good pilots.
Your girlfriend's friend won't be the only connection to a job. You will meet others as you socialize in the pilot crowd. Apply for whatever airline works for your life. Either you are based close to home, the pay is the highest, or you work the least amount of days. Whatever is the most important to you at the time.
It is a tough time to be in the industry or getting into the industry but who knows how the future will be. Many of the FOs at the regionals will make it to the majors. Not all of them but a good percentage. It just depends on a lot of variables like their age, their hours, and the economy.
I have known a few A&Ps that became mechanics and they are really good pilots.
11-02-2009, 08:07 PM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 888
I probably wouldn't take out 46k in loans to get a pilot certificate right now, but to be fair I didn't take out that many loans when I did it. I might accept the arguement that doing so will get you your ratings faster and therefore more able to build you time to get a job and be ready for the next hiring boom.... In my case I did my ratings too slow- when I was in school there were no jobs... so I took my time... then there were lots of jobs... I caught the end of the hiring boom and got furloughed... now for the second time... guys that were ready 6-9 months earlier are still at work some places... not all places though actually. It's all luck really. The upside of no loans is no huge loan payments... you might want to check what those loan payments might be....
Lastly, if the "questionable place" you're going is Gojet, then no I absolutely wouldn't do it. I probably wouldn't do Gulfstream either, any place else... say what you will but I won't look down on you. I had a friend go to gojet and literally I feel like the parent who's kid just really really disappointed him... I'm not really sure I can be cool with this guy ever again. That's how I feel, you'll find various opinions. I may never be on a hiring board, but if I ever am no gojetters will be hired. Maybe the whole lot of them will get lucky and be merged into trans states and thier names will be forever masked from shame... it's something for them to hope for.
Lastly, if the "questionable place" you're going is Gojet, then no I absolutely wouldn't do it. I probably wouldn't do Gulfstream either, any place else... say what you will but I won't look down on you. I had a friend go to gojet and literally I feel like the parent who's kid just really really disappointed him... I'm not really sure I can be cool with this guy ever again. That's how I feel, you'll find various opinions. I may never be on a hiring board, but if I ever am no gojetters will be hired. Maybe the whole lot of them will get lucky and be merged into trans states and thier names will be forever masked from shame... it's something for them to hope for.
11-02-2009, 08:29 PM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
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Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 254
I've thought about working as an A&P and training when I can, but I feel like it would somehow be put on the back burner and I could never really get serious about getting it done. As it is now I live at home with my parents. The flight school is a local FBO and the $46K is a lot, but it's also saving me from paying rent, food, bills, etc. Finding an A&P job could take me anywhere in the country with full time work, expenses, and no time.
The school has also promised me a CFI position when I complete the program. My plan as of now would be to get my ratings and work as much on the side as needed to pay off my loan bills. Then continue flying as a CFI for them, and again working on the side and focus on trying to reduce my debt as much as possible. When a job comes along, a job comes along and off I go. I agree that leaving a degree and A&P laying around is not a great choice at this point. But I'm trying to make it all work somehow.
The school has also promised me a CFI position when I complete the program. My plan as of now would be to get my ratings and work as much on the side as needed to pay off my loan bills. Then continue flying as a CFI for them, and again working on the side and focus on trying to reduce my debt as much as possible. When a job comes along, a job comes along and off I go. I agree that leaving a degree and A&P laying around is not a great choice at this point. But I'm trying to make it all work somehow.
11-02-2009, 09:11 PM
#5
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Buy a plane
Why don't you consider buying yourself a Cessna 150 or 172 and hiring a freelance instructor to help you to get your private license? Have fun with it.
The industry is in the dumpster. There is no rush. Get a regular job. Fly on the side and see what happens.
Skyhigh
The industry is in the dumpster. There is no rush. Get a regular job. Fly on the side and see what happens.
Skyhigh
11-02-2009, 09:37 PM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 278
Hmm, I will reiterate what others have said about taking your time, DO IT, dont rush. Your at zero debt right now, I envy you. Being envied is good, being in debt 48K is bad.
It seems to me like your a smart kid, you already got your degree and a marketable skill w/ the A&P, your in a really good spot right now. You feel bad or "disheartened" because reality is setting in. With that said you would have fun as an airline pilot, it is also perhaps the most expensive fun you can have, and its not as much fun as you think. My advice(and I know how you feel) get a job at an FBO as an A&P and slowly get you PPL there. Dont worry about being promised a job as a CFI because its worthless w/o students. What skyhigh said about buying a plane is a killer idea too. Just go slow dude, you jump in and all of a sudden the water is cold and you want to get out, and thats why so manny people "hate" this gig, they are commited finacially. You go slow, and dont go slow for awhile then go fast. Just work and fly a little you got plent of time my friend.
It seems to me like your a smart kid, you already got your degree and a marketable skill w/ the A&P, your in a really good spot right now. You feel bad or "disheartened" because reality is setting in. With that said you would have fun as an airline pilot, it is also perhaps the most expensive fun you can have, and its not as much fun as you think. My advice(and I know how you feel) get a job at an FBO as an A&P and slowly get you PPL there. Dont worry about being promised a job as a CFI because its worthless w/o students. What skyhigh said about buying a plane is a killer idea too. Just go slow dude, you jump in and all of a sudden the water is cold and you want to get out, and thats why so manny people "hate" this gig, they are commited finacially. You go slow, and dont go slow for awhile then go fast. Just work and fly a little you got plent of time my friend.
11-02-2009, 10:26 PM
#7
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
Something that should be added is that the best time to be in training is when there isnt any hiring going on. The industry is at a stand still and instead of looking at that in a negative light, look at it as a positive. If you bust your hump and get your ratings and build time while things are in the dump then you're not losing any potential seniority anywhere.
I started flight training just before 9/11. Soon there after the industry tanked. at the time i thought like you, but looking back it was a great time to be in school. The instructors were stuck instructing because there wasnt anywhere for them to go which meant i had only 2 instructors throughout all my ratings. Because of that it made it much easier to learn, i knew the instructors way of teaching and he knew how i learned. If the industry was booming you'd likely be going through instructor after instructor and thus probably having to repeat alot of stuff with each instructor adding time and money.
On the seniority front, After i got all my ratings and finished college I'd built up enough hours to get hired at a regional and that wasnt to long after they started hiring again. While i worked at the regional i built up the time and upgraded to the left seat and got my PIC time. By that point the majors started hiring again and i got lucky enough to get hired by one. All of this took place because when i started flying the industry was in a holding pattern. Timing is everything in this industry (mixed with alot of luck too) but use this time to your advantage if you can. Work hard now and you never know where you'll be in a few years
BTW I dont advocate getting into large amounts of debt either so do what ever you can to avoid that because the school loans will bite you in the arse eventually and you dont need that burden when you're trying to climb the career ladder.
I started flight training just before 9/11. Soon there after the industry tanked. at the time i thought like you, but looking back it was a great time to be in school. The instructors were stuck instructing because there wasnt anywhere for them to go which meant i had only 2 instructors throughout all my ratings. Because of that it made it much easier to learn, i knew the instructors way of teaching and he knew how i learned. If the industry was booming you'd likely be going through instructor after instructor and thus probably having to repeat alot of stuff with each instructor adding time and money.
On the seniority front, After i got all my ratings and finished college I'd built up enough hours to get hired at a regional and that wasnt to long after they started hiring again. While i worked at the regional i built up the time and upgraded to the left seat and got my PIC time. By that point the majors started hiring again and i got lucky enough to get hired by one. All of this took place because when i started flying the industry was in a holding pattern. Timing is everything in this industry (mixed with alot of luck too) but use this time to your advantage if you can. Work hard now and you never know where you'll be in a few years
BTW I dont advocate getting into large amounts of debt either so do what ever you can to avoid that because the school loans will bite you in the arse eventually and you dont need that burden when you're trying to climb the career ladder.
11-03-2009, 03:44 AM
#8
intentionally left blank
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Bus Co-Driver
Posts: 284
Hey Jones, I'm an A&P/ furloughed CRJ driver. Don't lose the faith, the flying job still beats working for a living. Most of the people who gripe and moan on here never dug ditches for a living: if that makes sense to you, then you'll be fine. I was furloughed less than 48 hours before the airline hired me back as a mechanic.. that A&P ticket is the best insurance you can buy in this industry. ($4,000/year pay raise vs. 2nd year FO pay, too!)
Keep the faith and get through your training. For once, I'm agreeing with SkyHigh and that frightens me.. but if you bought a trainer and used it to build time, your free labor as an A&P sure could save big bucks, then at the end, sell the plane in better condition than when you bought it... or keep it!
The industry's in the toilet, yeah, I know, but things should be getting better by the time you've got 1500 hours!
Keep the faith and get through your training. For once, I'm agreeing with SkyHigh and that frightens me.. but if you bought a trainer and used it to build time, your free labor as an A&P sure could save big bucks, then at the end, sell the plane in better condition than when you bought it... or keep it!
The industry's in the toilet, yeah, I know, but things should be getting better by the time you've got 1500 hours!
11-03-2009, 04:56 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 254
Hey Jones, I'm an A&P/ furloughed CRJ driver. Don't lose the faith, the flying job still beats working for a living. Most of the people who gripe and moan on here never dug ditches for a living: if that makes sense to you, then you'll be fine. I was furloughed less than 48 hours before the airline hired me back as a mechanic.. that A&P ticket is the best insurance you can buy in this industry. ($4,000/year pay raise vs. 2nd year FO pay, too!)
Keep the faith and get through your training. For once, I'm agreeing with SkyHigh and that frightens me.. but if you bought a trainer and used it to build time, your free labor as an A&P sure could save big bucks, then at the end, sell the plane in better condition than when you bought it... or keep it!
The industry's in the toilet, yeah, I know, but things should be getting better by the time you've got 1500 hours!
Keep the faith and get through your training. For once, I'm agreeing with SkyHigh and that frightens me.. but if you bought a trainer and used it to build time, your free labor as an A&P sure could save big bucks, then at the end, sell the plane in better condition than when you bought it... or keep it!
The industry's in the toilet, yeah, I know, but things should be getting better by the time you've got 1500 hours!
Thanks for all the replies, I've got more questions but must report to "work."
11-03-2009, 06:08 AM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: USAF
Posts: 1,398
Keep the faith and get through your training. For once, I'm agreeing with SkyHigh and that frightens me.. but if you bought a trainer and used it to build time, your free labor as an A&P sure could save big bucks, then at the end, sell the plane in better condition than when you bought it... or keep it!
The industry's in the toilet, yeah, I know, but things should be getting better by the time you've got 1500 hours!
If you get a least your Private... and network well you may find all kinds of people who own their own planes that you could barter turning a wrench for flying their plane...I've seen that happen around our airport countless times... which will significantly reduce your $46k quote.
Also some flight schools who may hire you as an A&P may give you a discounted rate on rental aircraft.
Good luck!
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