Bug Smasher

Jones, the value of a prepurchase inspection cannot be overstated - it can help keep you from those costly repairs you speak of.. but soometimes they're unavoidable. An overhaul, for instance: Lycoming has a 2,000 hour TBO on most engines; many go beyond the time limit and the calendar limit (8 or 10 years IIRC)... I've worked on engines overhauled 30+ years ago that still run fine.

If you have a partner in the plane, it halves the cost of expensive surprises.

But a Cessna 150/152 rudder should not cost $6000 to repair. I bet you can get a used one from a junk yard for less than a grand. If you've got an A&P, you should have the stills to perform the basic upkeep on a plane. Just know when to farm out stuff above your skill level (I, for instance, have overhauled engines before but won't touch avionics) before your mistakes get expensive.. in terms of cash or life.

As for the cost issues.. Can't speak there, that's not my ball of wax. I'll let the instructors weigh in there.

Blueskies21

I added those numbers of the individual programs in my head and it looked more like 38 ish on the individual programs vs. the all in one payment thing... I see why the flight school wants you to do the all in one... then they have a guarenteed steady income stream from you... but I'm not sure they're actually providing a substantial discount to you for the priviledge.... In my opinion if I'm going to pay someone basically a lump sum like that... I'm going to want some assurances... like with this lump sum deal you WILL meet all the requirements for all those licenses without any other fees... otherwise... pay as you go too bad for them.

On the issue of plane ownership, I did that when I was training. Owned a piper cherokee, it worked out OK for me. It was definately a steep learning curve, when I got started I just took it to whichever mechanic and fix whatever you feel like isn't perfect..... by the third annual with the third mechanic, I finally found a guy I trusted and who knew what level of repair I was comfortable with. A 40 year old airplane is never going to be perfect but some things are more important than others. As far as the rudder thing, I actually replaced that twice. The original was cracked, so I went to a salvage and bought one for maybe 200 bucks, didn't paint it because that costs money. Somehow that rudder got backed into the hanger ( I insist I didn't do that myself but could never prove who did) So the second time I replaced that rudder, I had the mechanic who I trusted reskin the rudder. I think the skins from Piper might have been 300 bucks and if he charged me 100 bucks I'd be shocked. So basically a brand new rudder for 400, I got that rudder painted at an autobody shop owned by a former instructor for basically the cost of a favor... so... definately not 6000 but I definately had to learn alot before I figured stuff like that out.

My advice with the A&P thing is find a good guy at your local airport and just offer to work with him, you'll learn lots of stuff and that will help you alot if you buy a plane.

By the way, I sold the plane for about 3k more than I bought it for just as the economy was crashing. Overall, if I'd been capable of controlling the costs initially I probably could have made money on the deal outright. As it was, it probably cost me something like 30 an hour to operate, compared to about 85 an hour 4 seat at the cheap flight school when I started and 120 an hour 4 seat at the expensive flight school.

So.. there's my story, it can be done.

ryan1234

Just flew a '61 Aztec with one 48 year old engine with 1900 SNEW. Lowest compression was 74! No new cylinders. No bad leaks. I was a little suprised.

Vampilot

YIKES! Who quoted you all of this? First, you CAN build time sharing an aircraft with someone else and you can both log PIC for almost all of it. One flys under the hood, the other is the safety pilot. That should cut your timebuilding cost in half. If he won't allow this or tries to tell you how the FARs don't allow it or any other bull, WALK AWAY IMMEDIATELY - HE IS A CLOWN TRYING TO SHAFT YOU! Btw, what do they charge an hour???

On the Multi, that's REAL expensive. Anything more and I'd ask if he was using a King Air! Get your multi somewhere else...unless that's the only twin you can use to build time in (...and do it on the split time program like I stated above).

DO NOT GO INTO DEBT - time is on your side. Also, this "course of study" is no bargain (I thought ATP was pricey! jeesh!).

Just a few things to think about...

shackone

As you continue to do your homework on this, be sure to consider all of your options...and the military is one of these.

Military doesn't have to mean career...nor does it have to mean active duty. Nor does it have to mean officer versus enlisted.

You have skills to offer the military. Take the time to talk to AF, Army, and Navy recruiters. Find out about the benefits that you can take advantage of in flight training.

It may be that this direction isn't for you...if so, no problem. But there are distinct advantages to be had, don't turn away without checking this out.

Hobbit64

Why use a seneca for multi training? There are definatley cheaper routes.

There is a guy selling an Aztec for 29,300 at flight info dot com in the 'time builder' section.

Here's a cut and paste:
Met my goal of getting up over 500 ME so now I'm selling this very well maintained 1957 Piper PA23-150 Apache. Current airframe total time is 5075 but being flown regularly -- 1009/LT 1066/RT SFRM on O-320-A3Bs. New no-AD props. King Digital IFR day/night. Dual vacuum and electric. rcnt o/h on heater, hyd pak. Extended range fuel and Metco tips, one piece windshield. Not the best paint/interior, but excellent flier, very dependable. Much more - email for full spec sheet and pictures. ONLY $31,500! STC'd for auto gas. Cruise at 160 mph/16 GPH if you need to get somewhere, but if you're just building time throttle back to 120 mph and 10 GPH! All the major maintenance issues have been done, engines, props & governors, carbs, mags, hyd pak, heater, bladders, etc. If you fly this plane you will buy it.

Get a partner and you've got a solid time-builder for $15,750 each and build ME time for as little as $30 per hour each.

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/8571/img0774x.th.jpg

Reduced to 29,300 as of 8/10/2009

Man I wish I had gotten an A&P as a kid instead of an 'Airline Pilots degree'

Oh well.

Also...Don't count out the military.

There are some good opportunities out there. And connections too. That alone may make 'rushing' a guard unit worth the effort.

Good Luck.

Jones14

Hello again, I'm not completely positive about that whole rudder ordeal anymore. Maybe it was $6,000 for a new one, or maybe $600 for the repair? I just remember thinking it was an outrageous price.

I haven't posted in a few days, I just needed to settle down a little and think about some of my options. It's pretty evident that taking out that massive loan for the school is a bad choice. I've formulated a new plan with all the advice I've been given. There are some pretty big "ifs" but I think it would work out nicely if everything fell into place. Number one, the biggest "if" of all. I would have to work locally so that I could continue living at home with my folks. That would save me so much money throughout the process. The bad part about that is I kind of live in the middle of nowhere aviation wise. There are only a handful of FBOs within 1 hour of my home. If I could manage sliding into a mechanic job at one of these shops and working for a few months to get a financial pad, I could possibly take a loan and pay off a 150 or maybe even a 172. Then hire an instructor and work toward my PPL and possibly more ratings with that plane. There's that word again though...loan. However, this time around it's a definite investment as the plane can always be sold, and as someone said before, if I found a good deal on a "hangar queen" it's not entirely impossible to sell it for a few grand more than the purchase price. After that I could try to put the money toward a twin, and finish up my ratings. Then sell the a/c and be debt free, or keep it and instruct. But, like I said there's a lot of ifs here and there's a ton of unexpected issues that I'm sure I'm over looking.

Surely someone in here owns a plane, correct? What are the monthly expenses involved with ownership? Off the top of my head I would say insurance hike, hangar fee, a monthly payment on the a/c itself. Is it a difficult process paperwork or FAA wise to own?

Also, hiring a CFI to train you in your plane vs. a structured course at a school raises a few questions. Is it the responsibility of the instructor to follow the FAA guidelines and keep you informed on what you should be reading, studying, buying, etc? How much do instructors generally charge per hour of flight? What does it cost to operate a 150/172 per hour? If I were to try and finish one lesson per week, how long would it take to obtain my PPL (it takes the longest of all ratings, if I'm not mistaken). I apologize for asking so many questions, but I'm trying to figure out roughly how much I would be saving by going down this road instead of going to a school.

Like you guys said, time is on my side and this way I could stay out of massive debt and gain some valuable experience along the way. So please fill me in on the good, but also, more importantly, the bad. Oh and one last question, are there any good books out there that you think someone in my position could benefit from reading?

Again guys, I appreciate your help and opinions.

Lab Rat

Jones,
In a lot of places $46,000.00 is a down payment on a house! And outside of purchasing a home, nothing is worth going into debt over - especially an amount that big. As life moves forward it does not get any less expensive. Car purchase, mortgage, family, and general living expenses. $46K in debt in addition to all of that is going to feel like you are dragging around an anchor.

You are very, very young and most certainly have time on your side. Do you think you can manage to save $46K in two years? I think you can, and I think you will be surprised how quickly too. It may require a lot of extra work and some sacrifices, but it will be well worth your effort to do that now and pay cash. Work hard now because you want to and not later down the road because you have to.

You must make three assumptions with this. First, that there will be an expansion in 2014, Second, that your friend's airline will still be in business, and Third, that your friend is still with that airline and/or can effectively help you out.

Take any rumors of "expansion" or "hiring spree" with a grain of salt. Think of it this way: would you go to Las Vegas and bet $46,000.00 on it?

You're not causing any problems, and most of us are happy to provide you with some helpful advice. If you want my honest opinion, this is what I would do. I would continue to work and set a goal of saving as much money as you can. You may even discover that your desires will change over the course of even a couple of years.

atpwannabe

Jones14:

You're 23; go and enjoy that starting salary that an aviation degree plus your A&P would fetch. I know for a fact that airport ops starting salaries are averaging about 35-40K per year. Not to sure what an A&P license would bring. After about one year or so on the job, go get your PPL and look into other options that others have stated......ANG, buying your own airplane, networking and the like. There are a million and one ways.....so to speak......to get to the level of flying that you wish to attain.

Take your time bro. Smell the roses. Enjoy the journey.



atp

pilot1278

Take your time, and just consider flying a "hobby" for now (I/E don't get into debt for it).

I was trying to rush rush rush, in order to get an FO position at [insert any airline here during the 06-07 boom] and I ended up with a mountain of debt. Granted, I went the part 61 route until the COM SEL and haggled my way through the CFII and MEL, so it's not as bad as if I would have gone to a 141 academy, but it's still in the $28,000 range.

My wife has her commercial helicopter rating and paid for it herself by taking her time, saving and being frugal with her money. She has no debt.

How did my rushing compare to my wife's taking her time? We're both presently in the same boat - jobless (aviation-wise). I missed the boom because I still needed to get my hours by instructing. She just doesn't care when she gets a job and is willing to wait.

Moral of the story: Take your time, save, pay for it yourself and if you can get into being an A&P at least you'll still be in the biz for now. Most A&P's are pilots, so at least you'll be able to talk the talk. Be outgoing, make lots of connections, and you'll be in fine shape in a few years.