Commercial Checkride Failure Question
06-16-2021, 09:08 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2019
Posts: 145
Jay, no offense.
As I’m teaching an initial CFI I’ll give you the same answer I’ll give him…..what-does-the-book-say?
Not all 172’s are the same, there are many variations in many models.
Some have the same limitations or restrictions and others don’t.
First of all is it in the Limitations Section?
If not is it a Warning, a Caution, a Note or a recommendation?
For instance the starter duty cycle in a 172S is a “recommendation” and not a “Limitation”
Under Emergency Procedures 3.17 descent through cloud the recommended techniques is hands OFF the yoke and small corrections on rudder only. That is not a technique that I would teach for various reasons.
Since you’re heading for your CFI what you’ve been “told” in the past should not necessarily be taken at face value as the person telling you may have been incorrect, quoting the manual for a different sub-model.
Being a CFI is about knowing why and where it says so.
Slip with full flap when frequently done will cause increased and accelerated flap track wear because of the ‘chatter’.
Now since a lot of flightschools use clapped out jalopies its often difficult to tell as it rattles regardless of flap position.
The effect still needs to be taught as you don’t want a solo student experiencing this for the first time on a solo flight as they’re often less then perfect.
As I’m teaching an initial CFI I’ll give you the same answer I’ll give him…..what-does-the-book-say?
Not all 172’s are the same, there are many variations in many models.
Some have the same limitations or restrictions and others don’t.
First of all is it in the Limitations Section?
If not is it a Warning, a Caution, a Note or a recommendation?
For instance the starter duty cycle in a 172S is a “recommendation” and not a “Limitation”
Under Emergency Procedures 3.17 descent through cloud the recommended techniques is hands OFF the yoke and small corrections on rudder only. That is not a technique that I would teach for various reasons.
Since you’re heading for your CFI what you’ve been “told” in the past should not necessarily be taken at face value as the person telling you may have been incorrect, quoting the manual for a different sub-model.
Being a CFI is about knowing why and where it says so.
Slip with full flap when frequently done will cause increased and accelerated flap track wear because of the ‘chatter’.
Now since a lot of flightschools use clapped out jalopies its often difficult to tell as it rattles regardless of flap position.
The effect still needs to be taught as you don’t want a solo student experiencing this for the first time on a solo flight as they’re often less then perfect.
No offense but I already stated that it's clearly listed in the POH for the Cessna 172. Since there are a lot of different types of Cessna 172's out there, I guess I could have been a little more specific in that it's in the POH for Cessna 172-L models manufactured in 1967.
Since I'm doing all of the legwork here and you're disagreement isn't based on knowledge but you're assumption that I'm wrong, maybe take a look at Section 2 of the PoH under the heading "LANDING" where it says: "Slips are PROHIBITED in full flap approaches because of a downward pitch encountered under certain combinations of airspeed and sideslip angle."
First of all is it in the Limitations Section?
If not is it a Warning, a Caution, a Note or a recommendation?
If not is it a Warning, a Caution, a Note or a recommendation?
Also, I just passed by CFI Initial yesterday (1st attempt) using the very same advice I'm giving to successfully land the Power-Off 180 *CONSISTENTLY*. OP is welcome to take my advice or not.
06-16-2021, 03:15 PM
#23
All is fine at .79
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Position: Paahlot
Posts: 4,215
Since I'm doing all of the legwork here and you're disagreement isn't based on knowledge
I’ve also trained and signed off 25+ initial CFI’s, CFII and MEI’s.
Yes…I don’t know anything
Congrats on your CFI, you’ll learn more about flying in the next 1000 hrs dual given then you’ve ever been taught.
No pun intended.
Section 2 of the PoH under the heading "LANDING" where it says: "Slips are PROHIBITED in full flap approaches because of a downward pitch encountered under certain combinations of airspeed and sideslip angle."
Thats my point.
Last edited by TiredSoul; 06-16-2021 at 03:27 PM.
06-18-2021, 06:36 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2019
Posts: 145
Since I'm doing all of the legwork here and you're disagreement isn't based on knowledge
I’ve also trained and signed off 25+ initial CFI’s, CFII and MEI’s.
Yes…I don’t know anything
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said YOU don't know anything, I said your DISAGREEMENT wasn't based on knowledge. Knowledge as in having a factual basis for your disagreement. You've offered nothing other than questioning my claims, claims I backed up.
Section 2 of the PoH under the heading "LANDING" where it says: "Slips are PROHIBITED in full flap approaches because of a downward pitch encountered under certain combinations of airspeed and sideslip angle."
Since the POH for the 172S wasn't relevant to sharing my practice techniques for the Power Off 180 and my initial post specifically stated that my recommendation was based on my own experience in my own aircraft, you haven't exactly added anything to the conversation.
Is your POH for the 172S different from the one here? It clearly states in Chapter 4 under Landings: "Steep slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 20 degrees due to a slight tendency for the elevator to oscillate..."
It seems like that would back-up my statement about hard slipping with full flaps being a bad habit since it contradicts the POH of your plane too. I'm not sure if it's universal to all Cessna 172 models, but it appears to at least apply to both of our planes.
Attitude, Jay.
You're being taught something. It doesn't work, if you don't listen.
You're being taught something. It doesn't work, if you don't listen.
We're all always learning. As a CFI I was taught that I need to own my mistakes but never back down when someone is challenging you on something when you're doing it by the book. If I'm wrong on something, the correction makes me a better pilot. If I'm right about something, then maybe I'm saving another pilot from making a dangerous error during a critical stage of flight. That's what this job is all about, right?
If my attitude comes off as unacceptable, I apologize. Feel free to PM me with suggested corrections and I'll adjust going forward.
06-18-2021, 09:10 PM
#27
All is fine at .79
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Position: Paahlot
Posts: 4,215
I’m not your enemy Jay.
Just pointing out a couple of things.
From your initial post:
The 172S Manual:
Then we can talk about forward slips and side slips.
You stated “don’t slip”.
Besides it’s a technique and not a “habit”.
Just pointing out a couple of things.
From your initial post:
(don't slip in full flaps configuration, it's a bad habit)
Steep slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 20° due to a slight tendency for the elevator to oscillate under certain combinations of airspeed, sideslip angle, and center of gravity loadings.
You stated “don’t slip”.
Besides it’s a technique and not a “habit”.
06-18-2021, 09:34 PM
#28
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,261
Learning is evidenced by a change in behavior. It's clear yours will remain the same.
Carry on.
06-19-2021, 08:45 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 205
A man of experience is not at the mercy of a man of opinion Jay. Hopefully you won't carry on that disposition later on in your career. You'll end up flying with various captains with different personalities, some even more pedantic than yourself.
06-19-2021, 01:19 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2019
Posts: 145
If you're training in an older 172-L, don't forward slip with 40 degrees of flaps on approach to landing with throttle at idle. Elevator oscillation occurring at low altitudes with low airspeeds isn't something any pilot wants to experience. That's my $0.02.
I have learned that some newer Cessna's are produced with max flaps setting at 30 degrees to help avoid the issue with elevator oscillations. No one here offered that insight, but it is something I've learned in exploring the issue of 172 type aircraft executing a slip with full flaps.
Thankful for the challenge to expand my knowledge on the subject.
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