MooseMan

Hello,

I am looking to start applying, and am wondering if I should disclose my military service. Years ago, out of high school, I enlisted in the Army infantry, but was discharged within 6 months of my enlistment. My discharge was "Uncharacterized - Entry Level Separation." My understanding is this kind of discharge looks on paper as it being like I never enlisted, basically. It isn't the black mark of a less than honorable discharge, but because it was under 6 months service, I also don't count as a veteran (nor do I consider myself one) for hiring purposes.

What should I put on my application? It's a fairly unusual set of paperwork, and I am under the impression that because it equates to me almost never having enlisted, that I should just leave the military service section blank, and not have to go through explaining it to an employer. If the regional does a background check and looks up if I served (do they?) I am not even sure that I would show up. On the other hand, I don't want to be dishonest, but I am told that employers are really asking that question to determine your legal status as a veteran, which I am not.

Thanks!

AirBear

Depending on how many years ago I probably would not mention it. If it was within say 5 or so years thou you might want to reconsider. Also, that could leave a blank spot you'd need to explain what you were doing. I remember apps I filled out where you had to explain anything more than 90 days with no job or school listed.

rickair7777

I'm not aware of a legal provision which "expunges" military service due to early separation. If there is such a thing, you'll need an attorney to explain how it works.

It is generally never going to be a good idea to fail to disclose any background info which the the airlines request. If you get caught, will get you fired immediately, and the history of termination will be reported via PRIA to ALL future airline employers... that's pretty much going to blacklist you from 121 for life.

The fact that YOU think the service was inconsequential is irrelevant, the airlines will want to make their own determination on that.

In addition to characterization, there are re-entry and discharge codes on the DD-214. You should google those, because many employers will consider them, particularly if the discharge was not an honorable. Honorable has been the default for all ranks for about 20 years, anything else will raise questions which must be answered). If it was many years ago, a general discharge was common for junior enlisted.

If the discharge was for homosexuality, I would think that would be a non-issue today. Same for bed-wetting, or something like. Anything related to personality/behavior/psych suitability would raise eyebrows with the airlines, since you have to be able to function in a regimented and occasionally stressful environment similar in some respects to the military. If you tell us what it was, we can guess at the potential impact.

All that said, you should have no problem getting hired by most regionals unless the sep code had something to do with severe behavior issues (ie violence). I think possession of a 1C would eliminate any concerns about psych for the most part. majors will typically be more selective.

MooseMan

Thanks for the input, good point about me thinking what is consequential not matching up with what they do.

The type of discharge is an un-characterized entry-level separation. This means it is entirely separate from the spectrum of honorable-dishonorable, because I wasn't in long enough to characterize it. The discharge is pretty neutral, definitely not a black mark like an other-than-honorable, but also not a positive. This kind of discharge is fairly new, so for any veterans who served awhile back and don't recognize the sound of it, that is why.

Basically, I failed to adapt to the infantry. There was an injury, and a bunch of stuff going on in my personal life that I used to use to justify it, but looking back on it now, I realize I was just incredibly immature, naive, and didn't have much of a backbone at all. In the 8 years since then, I have come a long way, and am actually in the process of re-joining the military. This time as a Chaplain in the AF Reserve.

The discharge is under chapter 11, with a re-entry code of RE-3 (Army system) for anybody who knows what that means.

rickair7777

The uncharacterized discharge is common enough, could be somebody who had too many injuries or something like that. But they will want to know why.

According to google, Army RE-3 is not eligible for re-enlistment, but can be waived. That's not good, but the fact that it's waiver-able is good. It's also better than some other codes which hint at serious behavior/legal problems.

Be prepared to explain the circumstances, if you can explain what you learned and show that you've matured, that should mitigate the situation for *most* majors I would think. It helps that you were very young, and will help if you can show a subsequent significant professional history. Getting a commission, even in a staff corps would certainly go a long ways towards that, as would college degree, white collar employment, etc.

What majors would not be looking for: Unsuitable for mil service, junior college dropout, tattoos, extended employment in retail coffee, then suddenly decides to go to flight school. Those exist at the regional level and generally stay there.

MooseMan

Thanks for your response! After putting this in my airline app, can they just look up all my paperwork, or will they require me to have it and bring it to an interview? Or will it even be mentioned at all? I have read conflicting opinions on both what military records can be seen by an employer, or even if they are allowed to ask you about your discharge, assuming it isn't dishonorable.

rickair7777

The airlines have a long history of skirting grey areas of labor law with regard to hiring practices, although it's gotten better recently.

You should expect to answer any questions they have, on the app or in person, honestly, and provide whatever docs they ask for. If you don't provide the info they ask for, odds are low that you would be hired, even at a regional. If you want to try to hold them to the letter of the law, better talk to a lawyer first. If you have an issue with their practices and want to fight it, that would likely be a long uphill legal battle. The airlines have in the past shown they'd rather fight and even pay damages than let someone they're not comfortable with fly their planes.

That said, DON'T provide any potentially detrimental info which they did not ask for. Bring all docs to the interview, be prepared to show them but only if asked.

They may be able to get part of your DD-214 (possibly via FOIA), but most likely they'll just ask you for it. Some airlines might get a copy just to verify the one you showed them was not falsified.

Sliceback

Tattoos? Non visible are never seen.

Flew with a guy that wore long sleeves. Single digit percentage of pilots that wears long sleeves. Later on realized why he flew with long sleeves - full arm tattoos.

Otterbox

Disclose it, be prepared to bring copies of your DD-214 to your interview and Indoc.

A regional won’t care as long as you’re disclosing and providing the paperwork. I know folks who have gotten hired with worse discharges at the regional level.

Majors... could be a factor, or could not be depending on the rest of your application and the severity of the pilot shortage when you’ve applied.

Best, safest, most conservative route is to go to one of AAs Wholly Owned regionals with a flow through so you have a way into the majors in your back pocket and keep applying to any and every major you can early and often. You should be fine long term though.

Stoked27

1. Does having a commission (non-pilot) help getting hired at a Major more than prior enlisted? Either objectively or subjectively?

2. Clarification on the coffee employment. Do you mean the folks who haven't exhibited a stable passion for aviation? Or career changers in general, even higher professional (non-coffee shop) employment?

*Edit* Now I'm getting bombarded with coffee advertisements.