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[Breeze] Airways
12-20-2019, 03:21 PM
#442
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 2,370
Ridiculous. Upscale those numbers to a Delta fleet 20 times as big and it is a half billion dollars annually. Delta profit for 2018 as given in their annual report:
A half billion dollar difference in an annual income of $5.1 Billion does not constitute chump change, whether you will ever admit it or not.
A half billion dollar difference in an annual income of $5.1 Billion does not constitute chump change, whether you will ever admit it or not.
12-20-2019, 04:44 PM
#443
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,096
And yet it was YOU who brought up the comparison to Delta.
You seem to try to change the subject when the facts don’t agree with your initial opinion.
12-20-2019, 05:14 PM
#444
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 2,370
The theory was that Moxy would have a cost advantage, I said it is a rounding error. The cost advantage is only as far as how many airplanes Moxy will have. Delta doesn't have to compete with Moxy with airframes that Moxy won't have. Delta can match anything Moxy can do price wise without even noticing.
I have made no effort to change the subject, but trying to quantify the cost difference across Delta's entire fleet when Moxy will have such a small number of aircraft is a fallacy and I am calling you on it.
12-20-2019, 07:32 PM
#445
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,096
If you insist.
Moxy has 60 aircraft on order. Delta has taken delivery of 28 but have so far committed to a total of 95. On the 60 Moxy has on order they will have a personnel cost advantage because of decreased seniority.
The difference in seniority equates to at least $120 an operating hour I do not believe $24 million a year is a rounding error. I don’t think most people do.
Straw man argument. No man said that Delta couldn’t undercut Moxy if they were willing to do so since they have much deeper pockets. No one said they couldn’t negotiate a better price with a 85 aircraft order than Moxy could with a 60 aircraft order. I was strictly comparing the personnel costs of 60 aircraft operated at Delta seniority levels to that off startup seniority. That difference is roughly $24 million annually.
I repeat: YOU WERE THE ONE who attempted to the $24 million annual personnel savings on a 60 aircraft fleet to a “rounding error” for Delta, not I.
The theory was that Moxy would have a cost advantage, I said it is a rounding error. The cost advantage is only as far as how many airplanes Moxy will have.
The difference in seniority equates to at least $120 an operating hour I do not believe $24 million a year is a rounding error. I don’t think most people do.
Delta doesn't have to compete with Moxy with airframes that Moxy won't have. Delta can match anything Moxy can do price wise without even noticing.
I have made no effort to change the subject, but trying to quantify the cost difference across Delta's entire fleet when Moxy will have such a small number of aircraft is a fallacy and I am calling you on it.
12-20-2019, 08:24 PM
#446
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Position: Upright
Posts: 396
12-21-2019, 10:36 AM
#447
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,558
If you insist.
Moxy has 60 aircraft on order. Delta has taken delivery of 28 but have so far committed to a total of 95. On the 60 Moxy has on order they will have a personnel cost advantage because of decreased seniority.
The difference in seniority equates to at least $120 an operating hour I do not believe $24 million a year is a rounding error. I don’t think most people do.
Straw man argument. No man said that Delta couldn’t undercut Moxy if they were willing to do so since they have much deeper pockets. No one said they couldn’t negotiate a better price with a 85 aircraft order than Moxy could with a 60 aircraft order. I was strictly comparing the personnel costs of 60 aircraft operated at Delta seniority levels to that off startup seniority. That difference is roughly $24 million annually.
I repeat: YOU WERE THE ONE who attempted to the $24 million annual personnel savings on a 60 aircraft fleet to a “rounding error” for Delta, not I.
Moxy has 60 aircraft on order. Delta has taken delivery of 28 but have so far committed to a total of 95. On the 60 Moxy has on order they will have a personnel cost advantage because of decreased seniority.
The difference in seniority equates to at least $120 an operating hour I do not believe $24 million a year is a rounding error. I don’t think most people do.
Straw man argument. No man said that Delta couldn’t undercut Moxy if they were willing to do so since they have much deeper pockets. No one said they couldn’t negotiate a better price with a 85 aircraft order than Moxy could with a 60 aircraft order. I was strictly comparing the personnel costs of 60 aircraft operated at Delta seniority levels to that off startup seniority. That difference is roughly $24 million annually.
I repeat: YOU WERE THE ONE who attempted to the $24 million annual personnel savings on a 60 aircraft fleet to a “rounding error” for Delta, not I.
12-21-2019, 10:42 AM
#448
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,588
You guys do understand that the HQ is being placed in SLC because he is LDS? The real operating headquarters will remain on the east coast and the decision for the HQ in SLC has zero to do with route planning. He has no plans for any real flying out of SLC. His entire business plan is point to point from secondary markets. The entire Delta discussion is moot.
12-21-2019, 11:21 AM
#449
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,096
You guys do understand that the HQ is being placed in SLC because he is LDS? The real operating headquarters will remain on the east coast and the decision for the HQ in SLC has zero to do with route planning. He has no plans for any real flying out of SLC. His entire business plan is point to point from secondary markets. The entire Delta discussion is moot.
2. I have no dog in the LDS fight. Clearly, the man has started airlines in Canada, Brazil, and New York in the past, and clowns one in Portugal. These areas are not - to my knowledge - hotbeds of LDS activity.
3. The CEO implies that the reason for headquartering in SLC was low cost and a favorable tax climate:
In putting his startup in Salt Lake City, Neeleman, who also founded JetBlue Airways, may have sought to correct one issue that once plagued his former employer. When Neeleman started JetBlue, he created a satellite office in Utah, but based it in New York City, near its largest hub at John F. Kennedy International Airport. (Neeleman had run a much smaller airline, Morris Air, from Salt Lake before selling it to Southwest in 1993.)
New York has been expensive, and Neeleman’s successors have complained about high costs. JetBlue nearly moved to Florida in 2010, but stayed put after winning new incentives from New York.
This time, putting the airline in Utah was an easy decision, Johnson said, even though the local airport is not expected to be a focus city, perhaps because it is dominated by Delta Air Lines.
“People can be working and living everywhere,” he said. “It doesn’t make sense to be trying to hire in the highest cost of living places. It doesn’t make a ton of sense for a competitive business.”
New York has been expensive, and Neeleman’s successors have complained about high costs. JetBlue nearly moved to Florida in 2010, but stayed put after winning new incentives from New York.
This time, putting the airline in Utah was an easy decision, Johnson said, even though the local airport is not expected to be a focus city, perhaps because it is dominated by Delta Air Lines.
“People can be working and living everywhere,” he said. “It doesn’t make sense to be trying to hire in the highest cost of living places. It doesn’t make a ton of sense for a competitive business.”
12-21-2019, 01:58 PM
#450
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: retired 767(dl)
Posts: 5,739
You guys do understand that the HQ is being placed in SLC because he is LDS? The real operating headquarters will remain on the east coast and the decision for the HQ in SLC has zero to do with route planning. He has no plans for any real flying out of SLC. His entire business plan is point to point from secondary markets. The entire Delta discussion is moot.
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