Banshee365

Do type ratings automatically include a non-written high altitude endorsement?

A high altitude endorsement was never entered into any logbook of mine but I have a CL-65 type rating. I would imagine that the high altitude endorsement would be covered with a type rating but I know how the FAA regs can be and want to get some opinions on if I can log PIC time in turbine's other than what my type rating covers.

OSAVIP

"Other than what your type rating covers?" No, you must hold a type rating for that aircraft in order to act as PIC of a turbine powered airplane. See 61.31. Maybe I'm not following your question...

bbrunton

April 15, 1991 is the key date.

(3) The training and endorsement required by paragraphs (g)(1) and (g)(2) of this section are not required if that person can document satisfactory accomplishment of any of the following in a pressurized aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a pressurized aircraft:

(i) Serving as pilot in command before April 15, 1991;

(ii) Completing a pilot proficiency check for a pilot certificate or rating before April 15, 1991;

(iii) Completing an official pilot-in-command check conducted by the military services of the United States; or

(iv) Completing a pilot-in-command proficiency check under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter conducted by the Administrator or by an approved pilot check airman.


Bill

OSAVIP

exceptions (iii) and (iv) do not have any date restriction...but these exceptions do not apply to his question since he asked about turbine aircraft. These four exceptions apply to the high altitude endorsement but do not override 61.31. He needs to be typed in that aircraft to act as PIC of a turbine powered airplane. I think that's his question...right? The OP asked about "PIC time in turbine's other than what my type rating covers". He needs the type to be PIC of a turbine airplane.

PerfInit

Did you get your CL-65 type under an Air Carrier's approved training program or was it under Part 142?

Under Part 142, it may be possible to be "concurrently enrolled" in a High Altitude Course at the same time as taking the CL-65 Type Rating course.

727gm

I would say if you had the PIC type rating in any pressurized airplane under 121, you can go fly a King Air 90 or a Turbo Commander (non-type-rating turboprops), if under 142 (eg FlightProfit Intl) you probably need an additional High Altitude endorsement from them in your logbook.... then go fly the King Air or TC or even 421.

Fly Boy Knight

It will depend on if you had a PIC Proficiency check under 121 or 135. According to 61.31(g)...as already quoted above...

(3) The training and endorsement required by paragraphs (g)(1) and (g)(2) of this section are not required if that person can document satisfactory accomplishment of any of the following in a pressurized aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a pressurized aircraft:
...
(iv) Completing a pilot-in-command proficiency check under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter conducted by the Administrator or by an approved pilot check airman."

This means that the High Altitude Training Endorsement requirement is NOT required if you completed a Prof Check therefore, someone who has done this and NEVER got a physical endorsement in their logbook MAY legally act as PIC of a pressurized airplane other than what their prof check / training was done in.

As someone also pointed out, this does NOT alleviate the requirement to hold a type rating in said airplane if it requires one. 61.31 is all about ACTING as PIC, not logging PIC time.

Although you do hold a type rating in the CL-65, I don't think it will legally cover you to forego the endorsement requirement.

I am not sure if you have an "SIC Only" or a full type rating in the CL-65 but I'll address both. The "SIC Only" is a no-go because you do not hold a full type rating and therefore, are not able to act as pilot in command of the very pressurized airplane you were trained on and since the problem in question is whether or not you can ACT AS PIC of a high altitude airplane, I do not believe this would satisfy this requirement.

The full type rating could be tricky simply because, although you were trained to PIC standards for the type rating, the regulation states that you must have completed...a pilot-in-command proficiency check under part 121. If your training was only to be an FO but still requiring a full type (PIC Privileges), I'd say the interpretations could lean either way. You would have to prove that the Proficiency Check you took at the end of training was a "Pilot In Command" proficiency check which, according to your seat position (if you are an FO), it wasn't even though the FAA typed you fully in the airplane so I'm on the fence on this one.

This is one area where I can see it going either way. You DO hold an FAA Type Rating to fly as PIC in a High Altitude airplane... however, if you did not technically take a "PILOT IN COMMAND Proficiency Check", would the FAA still say it is ok? I think it is time for a "test case" lol

With all of that said above, I am making one HUGE assumption... that you were trained as an FO. If you were trained as a captain, then you are good to go.

Banshee365

I should have included more information.

I completed my PIC type ride in October last year. The new rules resulting from the Colgan accident have required my company to change there training program. From what I understand, they could have gotten away with possibly leaving the SIC PRIVILEGES ONLY restriction on my certificate but, instead, decided to just go ahead and PIC type all of the pilots. The only things they had to do in addition to any other PC I've done with the company was an aborted takeoff and taxiing. My CL-65 now has the SIC PRIVILEGES ONLY removed. I would think that my AQP checkride for the PIC type would be considered a PIC PC although I was performing it from the right seat. But, I could see where there would be grey area.

The type of aircraft I'm talking about logging PIC time in are turboprop aircraft. I fully understand at this point that all turbojet's and aircraft grossing over 12,500 require type ratings to log PIC.

Since I can see where the grey area would be, I'm wandering if I should just get one of the few CFI's with the endorsement that I know to put one in my book and rid of the grey area.

rickair7777

It doesn't matter what seat you did the checkride in, if you got a PIC type then that counts as a 121 PIC proficiency check.

AQP obviously= proficiency check.

Even if someone thinks it's a grey area (I don't) the FAA is never going to bother an airline pilot re. a part 61 high-altitude endorsement.

bbrunton

From what I am reading you need the endorsement:

(g) Additional training required for operating pressurized aircraft capable of operating at high altitudes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft (an aircraft that has a service ceiling or maximum operating altitude, whichever is lower, above 25,000 feet MSL), unless that person has received and logged ground training from an authorized instructor and obtained an endorsement in the person's logbook or training record from an authorized instructor who certifies the person has satisfactorily accomplished the ground training. The ground training must include at least the following subjects:


If you are going to be the PIC... Then you need the endorsement.

The aircraft is pressurized... Endorsement required


You may be the SIC.

I don't have any of those endorsements, High Altitude, Complex, High Performance. I was grandfathered for all of them as I had completed a grandfather requirement before the rule was put into force.

Bill