STR8NLVL

Since Vera doesn't possess the rating required for the flight (instrument) she couldn't log it as PIC, would have to be Ira. ;)

Other point, the FAR says you "may" log the time as PIC, it doesn't say you "must." To do so in the 121 environment, when you no longer need the time to meet the requirements of any rating (you're already at the top of the food chain at ATP) would be looked at as immature at best and dishonest at worst. At that point in your logbook, you're only logging for job experience on apps anyway. And every job I've ever seen ask for TPIC is looking to know how many hours you were the actual PIC, not the logging PIC.

Further, if you're determined to try this immature path, you better only log the actual flight time from take off to touch down, or you're falsifying the time that the real PIC was steering on the ground.

If a logbook review sees it in an interview, it'll make you look bad, if not cost you the job.

So why do it?

As my dad always said, "just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

rickair7777

Actually she CAN log the flight as PIC since she is presumably rated in category and class (and type if required). You don't need an IFR rating to log time, even in IMC and/or an IFR flight plan if you have category, class, and type (you do need a rated pilot acting as PIC of course).

You also don't need complex or high-performance endorsements to LOG the PIC.

The guy who is ACTING as PIC needs all required ratings and endorsements of course.


I'm with you on this. Even if you keep your 121 SIC sole-man PIC separate the very fact that you logged might make you look like a clown in the eyes of some.

NoyGonnaDoIt

Here's the Chief Counsel opinion that deals with this exact scenario.:http://tinyurl.com/7zjy9jd

That's 2011. You can go back to 1980 and find the exact same analysis by the same office.

NoyGonnaDoIt

Can you show me one rule in either Part 121 or Part 135 that deals with how flight time should be logged?

You won't. Not in Parts 91, 119, 125, etc either. The only rules about logging flight time are in Part 61. And just about all of them are in only one section - 61.51.

That's the point. A lot of folks who generally understand the rules of logging flight time understand they have virtually nothing to do with crew responsibility and authority...

... and then promptly forget it when faced with a scenario that hits them the wrong way.

NoyGonnaDoIt

And that's the part I can never understand, Rick. And that I find a bit frightening - that an airline would fault you for following the rules.

Had dinner with an FAA attorney one evening before I was to give a talk on the enforcement process. I asked for what he saw as being hot topics from his end. He asked whether my audience included Part 135 pilots and when I said yes, he told me what was #1 - pilots who to protect their jobs violated FARs because their employers wanted them to. And some of those violations involve not entering things (like squawks) .

Different from the personal pilot logbook scenario?

In degree, definitely.

in kind, not so much.

rickair7777

It's not the "airlines", it's the personal opinion of some airline hiring staff (including captains) that I would be concerned about. Interviewing is a voluntary duty for an airline pilot, and sometimes the underlying motives for being there are not good. There are interviewers out there who are looking to squash people like bugs (and I've met them).

Airline interviews are notoriously bad places to stand out from the crowd. But nobody has to take my word for it...

TTOCSMCC

Why not just get some real PIC time without trying to fit into some gray area? Most pilots I know get into the career because they love flying. Get a job and fly your ass off. Potential employers want the experience for a reason. You will learn a lot along the way and probably have a lot of fun.

Phantom Flyer

Perhaps this is where the water gets "muddy". Under 14CFR Part 121, the Captain and Dispatcher share a legal responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight and both sign the flight release. The Captain is the "Pilot in Command" and most folks in a 121 operation log PIC time if they have signed for the aircraft or are a Check Airman sitting in the right seat giving a checkride or line check required by the certificate holder. The First Officer and/or Relief Pilot(s) log SIC time.

I don't doubt your research and the statements you made above and under FAR Part 61, you are correct. My point is that the "customary" manner for logging flight time with a carrier under Part 121, is the Captain logs PIC time and the rest of the compliment logs SIC when sitting in the right seat or even when sitting in the left seat as a relief pilot. I can't address Part 135 as the only 135 that I've ever flown was single pilot and I logged ALL the damn PIC time.

Gee, I hope that we have enough scotch in the crew galley as I can see this getting to be a l-o-n-g discussion. "Oh Miss, I'll have another on the rocks please".

G'Day Mates

NoyGonnaDoIt

We don't really disagree. In both cases, there are rules about who can exercise the authority (and bear the ultimate responsibility) granted to the person who is acting as the pilot in command, whether it be a soloing student pilot; a sport pilot with a non-flying friend, or the captain and crew of a Part 135 and 121 flight. There are different FAA rules about the authorial and responsibility depending on the Part the flight takes pl;ace under. But all of the rules on how the FAA wants to have those flight =logged= are in one place - 61.51.

All you're saying is that the the employment world, companies define something, to coin a phrase, as "company PIC." Those are the internal company rules and conventions concerning who may act as PIC and who is responsible. Makes perfect sense; it reflected the experience level of pilots as command and supporting crew; in the way crew are assigned, in determining seniority, and, for new pilots, assessing prior experience. Of course they do; it would be downright scary from a safety standpoint to find that all if the left seaters on a regional had spent 90% of their "PIC" twin time taking lessons or looking for traffic in the right seat of an Apache with the other pilot's head covered.

All I'm saying is that, aside from those understandable, unofficial and non-regulatory preferences that companies create for their own HR proposes and hirign standards, there is an underlying official and regulatory group of definitions that the FAA uses to determine whether a pilot has met the base qualifications for currency or qualification for a certificate, rating or operating privilege.

Understanding those two separate goals and Keeping the arithmetic of the two separate to that they are easily retrievable and usable for the appropriate situation takes less brain cells than running through a start-up checklist. Which is why I never understand the battle over it especially that part that sounds so much like "companies don't like people who follow the law."

Phantom Flyer

We agree and the highlighted point you make above is spot on, as is your last paragraph. If more folks read your last posting in its' entirety, this question might not come up every 60 days. Well stated.

Besides, once one arrives at that coveted seat with a major, no one that I know ever kept a logbook. It's not required or necessary. The only "logs" I've ever seen denote the good restaurants, watering holes and essential layover gouges.

Speaking of watering holes, let me buy you a drink NoyGonnaDoIt.

G'Night Mates