Judge rules Colgan 3407 recording to be used
10-20-2010, 05:40 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: B737 F/O
Posts: 425
Funny how the judicial system will rule against countless FOIA requests to keep the government's dirty laundry a secret, but allow something like this to be released. Yep, it's official, we have no rights anymore in the USA, comrade.
Aviation safety? Who cares about that when you could be assigning blame. Scary how some in this country think.
Aviation safety? Who cares about that when you could be assigning blame. Scary how some in this country think.
10-20-2010, 05:46 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: ERJ145 Captain
Posts: 473
Funny how the judicial system will rule against countless FOIA requests to keep the government's dirty laundry a secret, but allow something like this to be released. Yep, it's official, we have no rights anymore in the USA, comrade.
Aviation safety? Who cares about that when you could be assigning blame. Scary how some in this country think.
Aviation safety? Who cares about that when you could be assigning blame. Scary how some in this country think.
10-20-2010, 05:46 PM
#13
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 82
Say "nice sunset" at 9999 ft and then go off the runway 30 minutes later and the trial official government hacks will issue a ruling that what you said was negligent and contributed to the accident. Ambulance chaser scum lawyers will come after your family's home, your kid's college fund, your widow's savings and possessions.
Yes, pilots do get named in suits; that happens all the time. However, the airline (the employer) remains legally responsible for the acts of its employees. The airline (actually its insurance company) will pay the legal fees and any resulting monetary judgment. The fancy legal term for it is respondeat superior.
Consider an analogy--when is the last time you heard of someone losing their home, a widow losing her savings and possessions, a child's college fund, or all of the above, because an airline pilot (or anyone else) on the way to work caused a car crash that left a family of four all paraplegics? There are thousands of injuries and many deaths every single day from car crashes--where are all the homeless widows in the street with no possessions as a result of adverse judgments in those cases? There aren't any. It doesn't happen, because that's what insurance is for. If there is no insurance, that's what bankruptcy is for.
/Rant off.
10-20-2010, 06:53 PM
#14
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: A-320
Posts: 6,929
just so I am clear, the CVR will not be public correct? The jurors will be able to hear it only? I can't imagine the pain my family would feel listening to my last words prior to impact, this is something that I would imagine could haunt them forever. Everyday brings more disappointment and disgust with not only this so called "profession", but this country as well...............
10-20-2010, 07:00 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 789
Enough with the myth that an airline pilot faces personal liability and that his family will be left destitute in the event of a crash. As far as I can tell, not one airline pilot or airline pilot's family has ever been held personally liable or been required by any US court to pay damages. If you know different, please give facts, including names, dates, court case names, file numbers, etc.
Yes, pilots do get named in suits; that happens all the time. However, the airline (the employer) remains legally responsible for the acts of its employees. The airline (actually its insurance company) will pay the legal fees and any resulting monetary judgment. The fancy legal term for it is respondeat superior.
Consider an analogy--when is the last time you heard of someone losing their home, a widow losing her savings and possessions, a child's college fund, or all of the above, because an airline pilot (or anyone else) on the way to work caused a car crash that left a family of four all paraplegics? There are thousands of injuries and many deaths every single day from car crashes--where are all the homeless widows in the street with no possessions as a result of adverse judgments in those cases? There aren't any. It doesn't happen, because that's what insurance is for. If there is no insurance, that's what bankruptcy is for.
/Rant off.
Yes, pilots do get named in suits; that happens all the time. However, the airline (the employer) remains legally responsible for the acts of its employees. The airline (actually its insurance company) will pay the legal fees and any resulting monetary judgment. The fancy legal term for it is respondeat superior.
Consider an analogy--when is the last time you heard of someone losing their home, a widow losing her savings and possessions, a child's college fund, or all of the above, because an airline pilot (or anyone else) on the way to work caused a car crash that left a family of four all paraplegics? There are thousands of injuries and many deaths every single day from car crashes--where are all the homeless widows in the street with no possessions as a result of adverse judgments in those cases? There aren't any. It doesn't happen, because that's what insurance is for. If there is no insurance, that's what bankruptcy is for.
/Rant off.
10-20-2010, 08:45 PM
#16
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: CRJ
Posts: 68
This is also why pilots need to smarten up when it comes to the chatter both sterile cockpit and in cruise. NOTHING in the sterile zone should be said other than the bare minimum. Say "nice sunset" at 9999 ft and then go off the runway 30 minutes later and the trial official government hacks will issue a ruling that what you said was negligent and contributed to the accident. Ambulance chaser scum lawyers will come after your family's home, your kid's college fund, your widow's savings and possessions.
Even when not in the sterile zone, watch what you say. Never put on tape that you are tired or anything obviously similar, and remember that cash is privacy. Be smart people.
Even when not in the sterile zone, watch what you say. Never put on tape that you are tired or anything obviously similar, and remember that cash is privacy. Be smart people.
Agree with the first part--100%....the second part I'm not so sure about. I don't think courts will let all of those things be whisked away, but I may be wrong.
10-21-2010, 10:27 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: Square root of the variance and average of the variation
Posts: 1,602
Point of information? Anybody an MD out there? Can what is said/seen in an operating room be used in a civil case against a Doc for medical mistakes/malpractice? Seems a similar correlation.
10-21-2010, 02:15 PM
#19
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: SF340 CA
Posts: 59
Sorry I just couldn't let that one slide by.;)
10-21-2010, 02:28 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: Seat: Vegan friendly faux leather
Posts: 988
There is a permanent recording of the real time x-ray images in addition to electrical tracings from my procedures. In a suit, these could easily be pulled and used as evidence. If I missed an early accidental lung puncture, yes, that could be used as evidence. I have never missed an early lung puncture, and any that I did miss, I would hope would be so hard to see a jury would say, "yeah, I could see how even an expert would miss that."
I don't see this issue as really a fear of CVR tapes or flight recorders, but more as a fear of their misuse. Clearly, "mining" archives of flight logs, voice recorders, medical records etc., for minor or inconsequential breaches of the law would be terrible, annoying, and costly to everybody (except the lawyers). This is occasionally done in medicine, and there are even cases of "doctor-baiting" where the patient intentionally tries to mislead you into doing something wrong, or making some minor error, then suing.
At the heart of it, people know people are human, and error-mining records would be frowned upon strongly by any member of the [educated] public. As a professional, I continue to do the best I can under all conditions and am not concerned about others finding negligence in my work, because, well, I'm not negligent. If I ever am or was, I'll gladly correct my ways and pay a price, and I would want this for my patients and family members (and whenever I'm a patient too.) I'd want to know.
Have I ever made some sort of minor error? Yep. We all have. We admit this or are liars. I try to be the absolute best at what I do, but I'm not magical. This is why mining is bad, but detecting negligence is good. Negligence is a willful disregard that causes harm. Not the same as a bad outcome or a small slip / lapse.
3407 was a pretty bad situation. The captain was startled and, from all evidence I have seen, quite a poor airman. To compare this to small chatter at 9999 feet somehow ruining your family is an emotional argument, but generally a straw man, and is extremely unlikely to happen, and would find no support, again, from a hopefully reasonable educated judge and (hopefully reasonable) public.
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