rickair7777

I agree with everybody else, no way.

Also it does not matter if the regs are not perfectly clear on this...any potential employer WILL be perfectly clear, and will send you packing as soon as they figure out that you logged PIC without a PIC type.

TonyWilliams

If the plane is single pilot, then the PIC in the right seat could have a total non-pilot in the left seat manipulating the controls. And that person couldn't log the time either.

skypiratedc10

Actually like many other facets of the regs it is clear as mud. There are times when it is not only legal - but prudent to have more than one person in the cockpit logging PIC time - take a look at this article and if you still have questions head into your local FSDO and ask the question and watch as a bunch of smoke starts coming out of their ears. What really should happen is they should go to a PIC bracket of time and also a Primary and Secondary time to calculate - Someone could be logging "primary time" as a sole manipulator of the controls while the CA is logging PIC time - in this instance both seem to be able to log PIC - it is all very confusing indeed - especially for the military Aircraft Commanders where we'd log Primary, Secondary and Other - the whole while having been the guy that signed for the flight. In essence the PIC for the entire time. So I do believe there are times when more than one person in the aircraft can be logging PIC. But again I'm not an FAA attorney and I'd never play one on TV.

Here's the link:

Airline Pilot Articles

Fly Safe

NoyGonnaDoIt

I'm guessing like everyone else on this one. But at least this part of the analysis is incorrect for one reason - if I understood the OP correctly, the SIC only pilot =is= the sole manipulator of the controls. "Sole manipulator" is not a legal construct. It's plain English - the person whose hands and feet are preforming the tasks without physical assistance from another person.

But I agree with the conclusion.

The problem is that the "SIC rating" is just a piece of paper the FAA is issuing to meet some international requirements for documentation of training. Given that, I'm guessing that, if asked, the FAA would say that the SIC rating doesn't count as as being "rated" under 61.51. Doesn't matter if the other pilot is "needed' or not.

rickair7777

It's clear that an SIC rated pilot in this situation can log SIC and total time...the fact that he can log SIC time pretty clearly contra-indicates the logging of PIC time.

NoyGonnaDoIt

Not really.

Just as in every other logging question, what a pilot may log under 61.51 is almost completely independent of the role the pilot plays on the flight. The few exceptions involve 61.51 telling you the role is relevant, like logging PIC based on acting as PIC on a flight that requires more than one pilot under 61.51(e)(1)(iii)). The "sole manipulator" rule in (e)(1)(i) is not one of them.

There's no question that a fully rated (not just SIC rating) pilot who acts as SIC on a flight may log PIC time when the sole manipulator of the controls under 61.51(e)(1)(i) and may log SIC time based on 61.51(f). The two are not mutually exclusive.

skypiratedc10

Read the article posted above - essence - More than one person can log PIC at a time in certain circumstances. Not padding time - not "interpretation" - just the way it is. Have an issue contact an aviation attorney or send in for an interpretation letter. As I said I believe there should be a change to all this where they ask for PIC time and that being the person that signed for the aircraft - to be separate from "Primary" time which would be the sole manipulator of the controls - but I'm not king for a day.

Also it is totally legal for an Instructor to be logging PIC time while giving instruction thereby logging PIC and Instructor time even when the other guy is manipulating the controls -

Clear as mud isn't it?

Have fun with the debate.

Fly Safe

rightseater

If you have an SIC type, then your certificate will have a limitation that states "C525 SIC Privileges only" How could you possibly twist or interpret the regs to justify logging PIC time if your license clearly states SIC privileges only?

blastoff

AFI 11-401 (AMC Sup1)
11.8.2.1
Additionally, command of an aircraft (between mission ready ACs or above) can be exchanged anytime during flight; however, all crew members will be notified of the change of command and the off-going
AC will thoroughly brief the on-coming AC of the status of the aircraft and mission.

NoyGonnaDoIt

Remember that we're talking about an FAA that says that simulated instrument flight is a 2-pilot operation, even when the safety pilot is PIC. The interpretation of some of the logging rules tends to be a matter of logging policy.

Like I said before, I think it's not likely but I don't think that an interpretation that an SIC-only pilot is "rated" for the purpose of logging when sole manipulator is completely out of the question.