Agentessa

I'm a new Private, just started IFR training. Got into a bit of trouble last week on an IFR training flight with my CFI. Not sure what the consequences might be, and I'd appreciate any insight on this:

1.We (me and CFI) were on IFR fl.plan at 11,500MSL, over a mountain range when we encountered 'moderate' turbulence and a strong downdraft. At some point the rate of descent was over 1000ft/min, we were unable to maintain altitude and got below the assigned altitude by at least 1500 ft. Reversed the course and got out of there ok, but I'm worried it might be a problem with FAA since we deviated from the ATC instructions.

2.Same flight, 10-15 minutes later: ATC cleared us for a visual approach to # airport. Since it was my second IFR flight, I didn't know that it didn't mean we could switch the frequencies.. (I know that now!) Anyway, my instructor must've still been recovering from the nerve-racking uncontrolled descent into the mountain range a few minutes ago, so I guess he missed that I switched us to CTAF, or he missed that they didn't approve frequency chance - we were self-announcing as per the regs. After we landed, he called FSS, they chewed him out, he chewed me out.. But again, we deviated from ATC's instructions, second time in as little as 15 minutes..

Apart from feeling like an idiot, I'm also worried about this situation from the legal standpoint. Is it a good idea to file a NASA form for me in this case? On one hand, I'm not acting PIC, not IFR rated; on the other hand theoretically both deviations could've been prevented by better flight planning and CRM, so it's still partially my fault. CFI says not to worry, but I'd rather get a second opinion on this.

SomedayRJ

Standard disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.

The way I understand it, if anyone gets into trouble in this occurrence it'd be the guy in the right seat, not the left, as he was pilot in command, and ultimately responsible for the aircraft.

Was anything said by ATC, or by either of you to ATC, on the radio? Deviating from a clearance in an emergency—which this sounds like it was, the airplane was somewhat out of control—is fine as long as you *say something* as soon as practical. Since you reversed course and got out of there, I would assume something was said to ATC about the turbulence—I would certainly hope (and assume) so, because you were deviating in both lateral and vertical terms from your issued clearance.

Whoopsies. Again, the guy on the other side of the airplane should have said something. Don't push that flip flop button until you hear the magic words. Remember: it's his airplane as far as the Ned and Ted the Feds are concerned, since, as stated, you weren't acting PIC.

The odds are he caught holy hell from the FSS when he called in, and the two incidents *might*, since it was, as you have described, two pilot deviations, be referred to the local Flight Standards District Office for action. (The ATC facility observing the deviation doesn't *have* to refer the deviations, except for certain things.) Without having listened in to the ensuing phone call, I think you individually are probably good from an enforcement action point of view.

Remember: I'm not a lawyer.

AirWillie

If your CFI said it was OK then don't sweat it. These things happen from time to time. At least you didn't land with no permission.

NoyGonnaDoIt

The answer to "should I file a NASA report" is always "yes." The potential for avoiding the penalty in case of a certificate action aside, it's a safety program and anything you can say about the incident that would help other pilots in the future is a good thing.

A general observation: A pilot who is in a situation where he realizes he is going to be unable to hold altitude should say something to ATC before the deviation is noticed by ATC. If you think about it, if ATC knows in advance, they can make arrangements to avoid loss of separation, which is better for both them and you.

rickair7777

If you were on an ACTUAL IFR flight plan, you have nothing to worry about. Since you are not instrument rated and the offenses involved instrument procedures (as opposed to a gear up, botched landing, or other basic piloting issue)) the CFII will take the blame.

As to the altitude loss, if you had notified ATC it would not have been a legal issue. But might want to pay attention to winds aloft forecasts in the future, and plan terrain clearance according to avoid that sort of thing. 2000' + 1000' for every ten knots of wind is a good thumbrule (above the highest mountainous terrain).

But always do a nasa form, they are free.

Phantom Flyer

[quote=Agentessa;716981]. At some point the rate of descent was over 1000ft/min, we were unable to maintain altitude and got below the assigned altitude by at least 1500 ft. Reversed the course and got out of there ok, but I'm worried it might be a problem with FAA since we deviated from the ATC instructions.
2.Same flight, 10-15 minutes later: ATC cleared us for a visual approach to # airport. Since it was my second IFR flight, I didn't know that it didn't mean we could switch the frequencies..
Is it a good idea to file a NASA form for me in this case? [quote]

YES. If there is any question in your mind, file a NASA report immediately. Been there done that and have seen several guys "saved" by simply following the instructions and filing a report promptly. It doesn't cost anything and can save you $$$ in the unlikely event the feds want to have someone to make an example of.

G'Luck Mate and welcome to the best club you'll ever join !!

Agentessa

Thanks everyone for the replies!

I will file a NASA form (better do it quickly since looks like it's almost 10 days since that happened) but I'm also thinking to call AOPA and see what their lawyers have to say - and also see what I'm paying the extra $$ for (the "legal plan"). I'll report on what I hear from them next week.

Hope everyone had a great holiday, even if it was spent away from home!

SomedayRJ

The AOPA guys are fabulous.

USMCFLYR

It sounds like your CFII ought to be the one hurrying to file the NASA form for protection and for the safety aspects of the incident in general. He should guide you in the process so that you too can learn the system.

USMCFLYR

FlyJSH

NASA forms are your friend. You can fill out as many as you want, but only use their protection once in (I think) five years. File one EVERY time you make a mistake or someone else's actions causes you to deviate.

Based on my experience with the dreaded "stand by to copy a phone number" call, the controller has seen you two deviate once (all be it for a valid reason). Later, the two of you go NORDO. Now, in the back of his head, an airliner a few weeks ago went NORDO and a bunch of people got their picture in the paper. All he ever thinks about is retiring to that "sweet little tower job is upstate New York" (Pushing Tin reference) and here is some little puke instructor that cant keep his student in line. So after you land, he chews on your instructor reminding him that it's the CFI's ticket on the line. Now, like most humans, your instructor doesn't really want to admit his not catching a students mistake is his fault, so he chews a little off your hind quarters reminding you that mistakes like that could cost you your ticket.

Don't sweat it. File the NASA form, learn from your mistake, and move on. Nobody got hurt and I'll bet my paycheck, you never hear another word about it....well, maybe just a little bit from your instructor.

Good luck with your instrument. After that, things got much easier for me.