Spin Question
05-25-2009, 12:56 PM
#1
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 2
Spin Question
OK, quick question. I am training for CFI, and I have gotten my spin endorsement in the logbook. I'm wondering if it is ok to take a friend up, split the cost, and show him a spin. I am completely proficient, I just want to make sure it's legal.
Thanks!
Thanks!
05-25-2009, 04:04 PM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 191
not unless you both are wearing parachutes. check the regs for spins. btw, if you need to know if something about aviation is legal, the regs are a good place to start. not that we don't like answering questions on here, but just an fyi.
05-25-2009, 04:26 PM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: B777
Posts: 586
Trust me......you have a long way to go before you are "proficient" in spins. I used to teach spins in a Pitts S-2B and S-2C, a lot of CFI's that thought they knew what was what were surprised about HOW LITTLE they really know, including me at the time I was goig for my CFI back in the late 80's.....
Just be careful and wear chutes.
Just be careful and wear chutes.
05-25-2009, 04:30 PM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 606
Trust me......you have a long way to go before you are "proficient" in spins. I used to teach spins in a Pitts S-2B and S-2C, a lot of CFI's that thought they knew what was what were surprised about HOW LITTLE they really know, including me at the time I was goig for my CFI back in the late 80's.....
Just be careful and wear chutes.
Just be careful and wear chutes.
words of wisdom, you got there.... I got my tailwheel on the pitts, with a lot of hours in acrobatics and upset recovery; havent flown the pitts in a year and i sure miss it.
05-25-2009, 05:15 PM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 747 Captain (Ret,)
Posts: 807
When you did spins for your CFI training you were not required to wear chutes because this was a required maneuver for the CFI training. If you go up with a friend, it is not a required maneuver for training, and chutes are required.
You don't get to ask why this silly distinction exists, but the Feds say so.
Joe
You don't get to ask why this silly distinction exists, but the Feds say so.
Joe
05-25-2009, 05:42 PM
#6
Chief Jeppesen Updater
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Executive Transport Driver
Posts: 3,080
When you did spins for your CFI training you were not required to wear chutes because this was a required maneuver for the CFI training. If you go up with a friend, it is not a required maneuver for training, and chutes are required.
You don't get to ask why this silly distinction exists, but the Feds say so.
Joe
You don't get to ask why this silly distinction exists, but the Feds say so.
Joe
Spins not conducted in a training environment (IE - go up to do some for fun or show friends if you're not a CFI) do require a parachute, UNLESS you are the sole occupant of the aircraft.
Advisory Circular 61.67C
301. SPIN TRAINING AND PARACHUTES. Part 91, section 91.307(c), prohibits the pilot of a civil aircraft from executing any intentional maneuver that exceeds 60° of bank relative to the horizon, or exceeds 30° noseup or nosedown attitude relative to the horizon, unless an approved parachute is worn by each occupant (other than a crewmember). Section 91.307(d) states, in pertinent part, that section 91.307(c) does not apply to flight tests for a pilot certificate or rating; or spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by a certified flight instructor (CFI) or an airline transport pilot (ATP) instructing in accordance with section 61.167.
a. Section 61.183(i) requires an applicant for a flight instructor certificate or rating to receive flight training in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures. The applicant must also possess and demonstrate instructional proficiency in these areas to receive the certificate or rating.
b. Because spin entry, spins, and spin recovery are required for a flight instructor certificate or rating, a person receiving instruction from a CFI (or an ATP instructing in accordance with section 61.167) need not wear an approved parachute while instruction is being provided in these maneuvers.
This provision applies regardless of the certificate or rating for which the person is receiving training and also if the person is receiving instruction that is not being provided for the purpose of obtaining any additional certificate or rating. The instructor providing the training is also not required to wear an approved parachute while providing this flight training.
c. Additionally, it should be noted that any pilot or required crewmember may perform a maneuver that exceeds the limits prescribed in section 91.307(c) without wearing an approved parachute, provided there are no other occupants in the aircraft or the other occupants are wearing approved parachutes.
301. SPIN TRAINING AND PARACHUTES. Part 91, section 91.307(c), prohibits the pilot of a civil aircraft from executing any intentional maneuver that exceeds 60° of bank relative to the horizon, or exceeds 30° noseup or nosedown attitude relative to the horizon, unless an approved parachute is worn by each occupant (other than a crewmember). Section 91.307(d) states, in pertinent part, that section 91.307(c) does not apply to flight tests for a pilot certificate or rating; or spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by a certified flight instructor (CFI) or an airline transport pilot (ATP) instructing in accordance with section 61.167.
a. Section 61.183(i) requires an applicant for a flight instructor certificate or rating to receive flight training in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures. The applicant must also possess and demonstrate instructional proficiency in these areas to receive the certificate or rating.
b. Because spin entry, spins, and spin recovery are required for a flight instructor certificate or rating, a person receiving instruction from a CFI (or an ATP instructing in accordance with section 61.167) need not wear an approved parachute while instruction is being provided in these maneuvers.
This provision applies regardless of the certificate or rating for which the person is receiving training and also if the person is receiving instruction that is not being provided for the purpose of obtaining any additional certificate or rating. The instructor providing the training is also not required to wear an approved parachute while providing this flight training.
c. Additionally, it should be noted that any pilot or required crewmember may perform a maneuver that exceeds the limits prescribed in section 91.307(c) without wearing an approved parachute, provided there are no other occupants in the aircraft or the other occupants are wearing approved parachutes.
That said, I would not recommend taking a friend up until you are fully comfortable with your abilities. Also bear in mind that unless it's your own personal aircraft, a flight school might not look kindly on you doing spins in their aircraft without prior approval (unless it's an acro certified plane). It's tough on gyro instruments.
Once again an example of legal, but not necessarily prudent.
Last edited by FlyerJosh; 05-25-2009 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Added info/comments.
05-25-2009, 06:47 PM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 273
Yes, but it isn't the 152. There have been two C-150 incidents of the rudder jamming which prevented spin recovery. It has been a Service Bulletin for years and has finally become an AD.
There are two ways to comply with the AD.
1. Find out which of the two kits you need and replace the "suspect" parts.
2. Placard the panel to advise the occupants that no aerobatic maneuvers including spins are approved.
Considering that the 150 is 52 years old I'd say this is much ado about nothing but it is what it is.
There are two ways to comply with the AD.
1. Find out which of the two kits you need and replace the "suspect" parts.
2. Placard the panel to advise the occupants that no aerobatic maneuvers including spins are approved.
Considering that the 150 is 52 years old I'd say this is much ado about nothing but it is what it is.
05-25-2009, 07:08 PM
#9
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,388
Second Endorsement here...
The FAA used to require spins for a PPL. Due to numerous fatal training accidents, they deleted that requirement except for CFI's.
Times change, people come and go, so at some point the powers-that-be at the FAA decided that maybe spin training was not such a bad idea after all. So what they did was left the existing regs in place (parachutes) but "reinterpreted" them to allow any CFI to give spin training to anyone without a 'chute. Spins are still not mandatory for pilot certs, but you can do them if you want (without parachutes with a CFI).
The legal premise is that any pilot at any level of certification might want to earn a CFI some day, so the training is legit under that exemption. There is no law that says you have to have a CPL or ATP before you conduct training towards an instructor rating.
They are safe enough without 'chutes...if you use the right airplane in the correct W&B envelope. A stock 172 will usually recover on it's own if you release the controls.
The FAA used to require spins for a PPL. Due to numerous fatal training accidents, they deleted that requirement except for CFI's.
Times change, people come and go, so at some point the powers-that-be at the FAA decided that maybe spin training was not such a bad idea after all. So what they did was left the existing regs in place (parachutes) but "reinterpreted" them to allow any CFI to give spin training to anyone without a 'chute. Spins are still not mandatory for pilot certs, but you can do them if you want (without parachutes with a CFI).
The legal premise is that any pilot at any level of certification might want to earn a CFI some day, so the training is legit under that exemption. There is no law that says you have to have a CPL or ATP before you conduct training towards an instructor rating.
They are safe enough without 'chutes...if you use the right airplane in the correct W&B envelope. A stock 172 will usually recover on it's own if you release the controls.
05-25-2009, 08:16 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: USAF
Posts: 1,398
Yes, but it isn't the 152. There have been two C-150 incidents of the rudder jamming which prevented spin recovery. It has been a Service Bulletin for years and has finally become an AD.
There are two ways to comply with the AD.
1. Find out which of the two kits you need and replace the "suspect" parts.
2. Placard the panel to advise the occupants that no aerobatic maneuvers including spins are approved.
Considering that the 150 is 52 years old I'd say this is much ado about nothing but it is what it is.
There are two ways to comply with the AD.
1. Find out which of the two kits you need and replace the "suspect" parts.
2. Placard the panel to advise the occupants that no aerobatic maneuvers including spins are approved.
Considering that the 150 is 52 years old I'd say this is much ado about nothing but it is what it is.
as a side note - I'm pretty sure any gyro linked to an AP will be heavily damaged if it tumbles... could be wrong about that though.
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