Atlas Air Hiring
11-25-2017, 12:03 PM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2017
Posts: 37
Thanks for that answer. To be honest I am one of those regional FOs at the moment. NO TPIC. Adding to the pot... I've lived overseas most of my life in Asia, Aussie, Europe etc. I am completely at home out in the world. In fact it makes more sense out there where reality is king. International flying has fascinated me. I'll do my best not to look a pratt!
One of my concerns would be how to get good at this doing one landing a month in the 74. Right out of OE making a 40kt crosswind landing at Narita in the face of a typhoon...
QUESTION: What is the best way to get good at this once you're there? What could I do now as a pre-applicant or once as a whale FO that would give me an advantage at being ready when the time comes? What makes a good FO at Atlas in the 747?
One of my concerns would be how to get good at this doing one landing a month in the 74. Right out of OE making a 40kt crosswind landing at Narita in the face of a typhoon...
QUESTION: What is the best way to get good at this once you're there? What could I do now as a pre-applicant or once as a whale FO that would give me an advantage at being ready when the time comes? What makes a good FO at Atlas in the 747?
I would not say that anyone is setting you up. They have made changes in MIA and it is certainly better that it used to be. They fired some of the worst offenders.
SA is the director of training, and he has made significant improvements such as the new computer training which is night and day better.
The problem is that the entire training program is not set up to handle pilots with no international and or heavy experience. They simply are not prepared or willing to spend the time and money necessary to train the type of pilots we are hiring now. We are seeing the results of this out on the line on a daily basis.
Atlas is not a beginners airline. Pilots are being released from OE without a North Atlantic crossing. Mistakes are being made that would have been unimaginable 5 years ago. Of course, the company blames the pilots for all of this...
My advice to any new hire is to purchase a quality active noise cancelling headset BEFORE you start OE! Read the ICAO Communications manual.
When you choose to become an international pilot, you have to follow the international rules. You sound like an unprofessional clown when you say things like "Giant 1234, 2 point 5 climbing to 9000."
In some ways, the flying we do is easier than what many regional guys are used to. We don't fly 4 legs a day, etc. Anyone with a good attitude and appropriate aptitude can fly the whale around the globe, but you have to know a lot of stuff that is not necessarily written in a book in order to do it safely and efficiently. Experience is purchased with time, effort, and exposure.
SA is the director of training, and he has made significant improvements such as the new computer training which is night and day better.
The problem is that the entire training program is not set up to handle pilots with no international and or heavy experience. They simply are not prepared or willing to spend the time and money necessary to train the type of pilots we are hiring now. We are seeing the results of this out on the line on a daily basis.
Atlas is not a beginners airline. Pilots are being released from OE without a North Atlantic crossing. Mistakes are being made that would have been unimaginable 5 years ago. Of course, the company blames the pilots for all of this...
My advice to any new hire is to purchase a quality active noise cancelling headset BEFORE you start OE! Read the ICAO Communications manual.
When you choose to become an international pilot, you have to follow the international rules. You sound like an unprofessional clown when you say things like "Giant 1234, 2 point 5 climbing to 9000."
In some ways, the flying we do is easier than what many regional guys are used to. We don't fly 4 legs a day, etc. Anyone with a good attitude and appropriate aptitude can fly the whale around the globe, but you have to know a lot of stuff that is not necessarily written in a book in order to do it safely and efficiently. Experience is purchased with time, effort, and exposure.
11-25-2017, 05:22 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Position: 747 CA
Posts: 344
Well, that is the problem. You will not get many landings each month, but you should aggressively seek them. I see FO's turn landings down. I never did that as an FO.
Be a sponge, ask questions, study on your own, etc.
The 747 is tricky because we land at weights from empty to max landing weight. But don't be intimidated either as it is not a difficult plane to fly. It is just big. Learn to stay on center line at all times, develop strict aileron discipline, and strive to be smooth. The jet has a lot of inertia and you have to respect that. You can't pull it out at the bottom like you can in smaller aircraft. And your worst enemy is fatigue. You will rarely be on your A game.
Be a sponge, ask questions, study on your own, etc.
The 747 is tricky because we land at weights from empty to max landing weight. But don't be intimidated either as it is not a difficult plane to fly. It is just big. Learn to stay on center line at all times, develop strict aileron discipline, and strive to be smooth. The jet has a lot of inertia and you have to respect that. You can't pull it out at the bottom like you can in smaller aircraft. And your worst enemy is fatigue. You will rarely be on your A game.
11-25-2017, 07:19 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,154
Rocketm8,
Attitude is everything. We need new hires who are going to come in and say “ok I’m inexperienced. What do I have to do to grow as a pilot here in order to be a captain in a few years(months!!!).”
IMO, the best way to do this is to learn from your captains at every stage. Get involved with every decision, ask questions “why?” “What would YOU do if..” most of the captains here are more than willing to share their experience and knowledge. Also, hit the books and study your ass off. Don’t be that guy that makes the coffee then hits he bunks for the 14 hour pacific crossing. If you stay active you’ll do great.
It’s not an individuals experience that makes them a good pilot, it’s their attitude. Unfortunately, our management has soured all of ours. Even more unfortunately is that this is no excuse when an accident happens. Sounds like you have the right mindset!
Attitude is everything. We need new hires who are going to come in and say “ok I’m inexperienced. What do I have to do to grow as a pilot here in order to be a captain in a few years(months!!!).”
IMO, the best way to do this is to learn from your captains at every stage. Get involved with every decision, ask questions “why?” “What would YOU do if..” most of the captains here are more than willing to share their experience and knowledge. Also, hit the books and study your ass off. Don’t be that guy that makes the coffee then hits he bunks for the 14 hour pacific crossing. If you stay active you’ll do great.
It’s not an individuals experience that makes them a good pilot, it’s their attitude. Unfortunately, our management has soured all of ours. Even more unfortunately is that this is no excuse when an accident happens. Sounds like you have the right mindset!
11-25-2017, 09:24 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: 747
Posts: 1,290
To build on what the others have just said, the training program is still so short that you have to teach yourself most everything from systems to procedures and international ops. All they do in the training center is provide the computers for the CBT programs and the "books" (via iPad downloads) for the rest. There is very little of what you would consider actual classroom teaching. For instance, international and overwater ops is a one day affair.
The old "learning by drinking from the fire hose" method simply doesn't apply here. It's more like Atlas gives you the fire truck tanker and says: "Drink up!"
The result of this is problems like one that is rumored to have happened to one of our crews recently. During OE training, a new hire is required to make only ONE oceanic crossing to be signed off for line ops. Unfortunately, one on deck crew of two new FO's applied Pacific crossing procedures (which they had had during their OE training) to an Atlantic crossing (which they had never done). The problem is that those are two VERY different procedures. The captain was in the bunk on his rest period and had never interviewed them regarding their OE training experience - after all, they had been signed off for line ops and our line captains are not company flight instructors.
Obviously, all of our captains do inquire about new a crew member's experience and current route knowledge, are all happy to provide answers to new hire questions, and will provide guidance when appropriate. The problem is that the Miami training center relies on the OE trainers to complete the teaching job and the OE trainers rely on the line pilots to complete the job and there is never communication between the last two steps in this chain of errors because that would be an admission that there is an inadequacy in the system.
One day it could create a disastrous incident for some poor Atlas crew.
The old "learning by drinking from the fire hose" method simply doesn't apply here. It's more like Atlas gives you the fire truck tanker and says: "Drink up!"
The result of this is problems like one that is rumored to have happened to one of our crews recently. During OE training, a new hire is required to make only ONE oceanic crossing to be signed off for line ops. Unfortunately, one on deck crew of two new FO's applied Pacific crossing procedures (which they had had during their OE training) to an Atlantic crossing (which they had never done). The problem is that those are two VERY different procedures. The captain was in the bunk on his rest period and had never interviewed them regarding their OE training experience - after all, they had been signed off for line ops and our line captains are not company flight instructors.
Obviously, all of our captains do inquire about new a crew member's experience and current route knowledge, are all happy to provide answers to new hire questions, and will provide guidance when appropriate. The problem is that the Miami training center relies on the OE trainers to complete the teaching job and the OE trainers rely on the line pilots to complete the job and there is never communication between the last two steps in this chain of errors because that would be an admission that there is an inadequacy in the system.
One day it could create a disastrous incident for some poor Atlas crew.
11-26-2017, 06:17 PM
Ice-bagger
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 273
Well, that is the problem. You will not get many landings each month, but you should aggressively seek them. I see FO's turn landings down. I never did that as an FO.
Be a sponge, ask questions, study on your own, etc.
The 747 is tricky because we land at weights from empty to max landing weight. But don't be intimidated either as it is not a difficult plane to fly. It is just big. Learn to stay on center line at all times, develop strict aileron discipline, and strive to be smooth. The jet has a lot of inertia and you have to respect that. You can't pull it out at the bottom like you can in smaller aircraft. And your worst enemy is fatigue. You will rarely be on your A game.
Be a sponge, ask questions, study on your own, etc.
The 747 is tricky because we land at weights from empty to max landing weight. But don't be intimidated either as it is not a difficult plane to fly. It is just big. Learn to stay on center line at all times, develop strict aileron discipline, and strive to be smooth. The jet has a lot of inertia and you have to respect that. You can't pull it out at the bottom like you can in smaller aircraft. And your worst enemy is fatigue. You will rarely be on your A game.
This exactly!
Last edited by Davetastic; 11-26-2017 at 06:54 PM.
11-26-2017, 06:53 PM
Ice-bagger
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 273
To build on what the others have just said, the training program is still so short that you have to teach yourself most everything from systems to procedures and international ops. All they do in the training center is provide the computers for the CBT programs and the "books" (via iPad downloads) for the rest. There is very little of what you would consider actual classroom teaching. For instance, international and overwater ops is a one day affair.
The old "learning by drinking from the fire hose" method simply doesn't apply here. It's more like Atlas gives you the fire truck tanker and says: "Drink up!"
The result of this is problems like one that is rumored to have happened to one of our crews recently. During OE training, a new hire is required to make only ONE oceanic crossing to be signed off for line ops. Unfortunately, one on deck crew of two new FO's applied Pacific crossing procedures (which they had had during their OE training) to an Atlantic crossing (which they had never done). The problem is that those are two VERY different procedures. The captain was in the bunk on his rest period and had never interviewed them regarding their OE training experience - after all, they had been signed off for line ops and our line captains are not company flight instructors.
Obviously, all of our captains do inquire about new a crew member's experience and current route knowledge, are all happy to provide answers to new hire questions, and will provide guidance when appropriate. The problem is that the Miami training center relies on the OE trainers to complete the teaching job and the OE trainers rely on the line pilots to complete the job and there is never communication between the last two steps in this chain of errors because that would be an admission that there is an inadequacy in the system.
One day it could create a disastrous incident for some poor Atlas crew.
The old "learning by drinking from the fire hose" method simply doesn't apply here. It's more like Atlas gives you the fire truck tanker and says: "Drink up!"
The result of this is problems like one that is rumored to have happened to one of our crews recently. During OE training, a new hire is required to make only ONE oceanic crossing to be signed off for line ops. Unfortunately, one on deck crew of two new FO's applied Pacific crossing procedures (which they had had during their OE training) to an Atlantic crossing (which they had never done). The problem is that those are two VERY different procedures. The captain was in the bunk on his rest period and had never interviewed them regarding their OE training experience - after all, they had been signed off for line ops and our line captains are not company flight instructors.
Obviously, all of our captains do inquire about new a crew member's experience and current route knowledge, are all happy to provide answers to new hire questions, and will provide guidance when appropriate. The problem is that the Miami training center relies on the OE trainers to complete the teaching job and the OE trainers rely on the line pilots to complete the job and there is never communication between the last two steps in this chain of errors because that would be an admission that there is an inadequacy in the system.
One day it could create a disastrous incident for some poor Atlas crew.
Despite that during OE a new hire may only be required to make as many oceanic crossings as the check airman sees fit, it is NOT rocket science. What makes it difficult is when SHI* goes wrong!!! The LOFT training will truly demonstrate how behind you really may be if non-normal ops presents itself. The RJ drivers are the ones that have done really well both in training and during OE.
It is contradictory to say that the CA in the aforementioned example ".....had never interviewed them...." and then say "....all of our captains do inquire....".
Rumors are cannon fodder and should be treated as such. Saying "one day it COULD create a disastrous incident", is just adding fuel to the union fire. It is just the same as the company saying that "leaving on time is tantamount to leaving late". NEITHER help and BOTH dilute their respective position.
IF you want to come to Atlas and if you are hired.....STUDY. If you make it to OE, STUDY. Pay attention to procedures and don't take for granted that anybody on your crew has more experience than you.
Last edited by Davetastic; 11-26-2017 at 07:07 PM.
11-26-2017, 07:01 PM
Ice-bagger
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 273
Rocketm8,
Attitude is everything. We need new hires who are going to come in and say “ok I’m inexperienced. What do I have to do to grow as a pilot here in order to be a captain in a few years(months!!!).”
IMO, the best way to do this is to learn from your captains at every stage. Get involved with every decision, ask questions “why?” “What would YOU do if..” most of the captains here are more than willing to share their experience and knowledge. Also, hit the books and study your ass off. Don’t be that guy that makes the coffee then hits he bunks for the 14 hour pacific crossing. If you stay active you’ll do great.
It’s not an individuals experience that makes them a good pilot, it’s their attitude. Unfortunately, our management has soured all of ours. Even more unfortunately is that this is no excuse when an accident happens. Sounds like you have the right mindset!
Attitude is everything. We need new hires who are going to come in and say “ok I’m inexperienced. What do I have to do to grow as a pilot here in order to be a captain in a few years(months!!!).”
IMO, the best way to do this is to learn from your captains at every stage. Get involved with every decision, ask questions “why?” “What would YOU do if..” most of the captains here are more than willing to share their experience and knowledge. Also, hit the books and study your ass off. Don’t be that guy that makes the coffee then hits he bunks for the 14 hour pacific crossing. If you stay active you’ll do great.
It’s not an individuals experience that makes them a good pilot, it’s their attitude. Unfortunately, our management has soured all of ours. Even more unfortunately is that this is no excuse when an accident happens. Sounds like you have the right mindset!
Accurate.
11-28-2017, 11:57 AM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 84
Its a huge step back in to a toxic adversarial battle field that you will be held accountable to fight. I can't discourage this place strongly enough.
11-28-2017, 12:26 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Position: Wichita
Posts: 736
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