Atlas Air Hiring
02-16-2017, 01:40 PM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 48
I get what you are trying to say but in a "very controlled passenger domestic environment the WX is just as extreme as anywhere and with regards to sensitive cargo......are passengers not sensitive cargo? And what is so hard about plotting? and radio calls? So what you are saying is that legacy pilots have learners permits and we mighty Atlas pilots are the semi drivers?!!!.............(withdrawn).
As I mentioned earlier, when you gain sufficient aviation maturity through experience, there is a realization of what I stated. It has nothing to do with learning oceanic procedures or specific rules at a certain locations....
It has to do with decision making. Contrary to your interpretation from my post, all my friends at the legacies are extremely capable and most are better pilots than I ever will be. You don't need to cross an international border to gain experience. Not mixing the two.
02-16-2017, 02:47 PM
Ice-bagger
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 273
No. That's not what I'm saying.
As I mentioned earlier, when you gain sufficient aviation maturity through experience, there is a realization of what I stated. It has nothing to do with learning oceanic procedures or specific rules at a certain locations....
It has to do with decision making. Contrary to your interpretation from my post, all my friends at the legacies are extremely capable and most are better pilots than I ever will be. You don't need to cross an international border to gain experience. Not mixing the two.
As I mentioned earlier, when you gain sufficient aviation maturity through experience, there is a realization of what I stated. It has nothing to do with learning oceanic procedures or specific rules at a certain locations....
It has to do with decision making. Contrary to your interpretation from my post, all my friends at the legacies are extremely capable and most are better pilots than I ever will be. You don't need to cross an international border to gain experience. Not mixing the two.
Don't take what I put here out of context. That's why I put...(withdrawn). It was my feeble attempt at sarcasm. My apologies.
I AGREE with what you are saying 100% re: experience. I think the disconnect on this thread is that people are assuming that Atlas is currently hiring substandard pilots because Atlas has substandard pay therefore Atlas can only attract substandard pilots. I disagree with that notion. If that were the case, what does that say about the last 300 or 400 pilots that were just hired over the last two years? Some of the men and women that I have flown with here are the sharpest pilots I have ever flown. The danger Atlas is facing is keeping that talent. Ultimately there will be a tipping point whereby Atlas will only be able to attract those with dings or a mar on their record but that also doesn't make them bad pilots just not desirable ones (on paper) in this environment at the legacies....and then to not be able to hire and keep enough pilots at all!
I think we are all making the same point......we are just taking different ways to get there.
FUPM!!
02-16-2017, 05:16 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Posts: 418
Ok just to throw my .02 into the argument.
I spent 4 years as a regional FO before I went to EK in Dubai. If I had been taken from right seat in an RJ and dropped in the right seat of a 737/320 at DL,UA, AA, etc, there would have very little learning curve to overcome. With the exception of learning a new aircraft and SOPS, Which comes with every new job, there was very little new information to absorb. I was already knowledgeable of US airspace, terminology, airport procedures, weather patterns, divert options, etc.
When I went to EK and started flying internationally I was amazed at the things I didn't know, that I didn't know. In addition to learning how to fly a widebody aircraft, which requires a more definite plan in dealing with inertia and energy management, which simply is not a factor in flying RJs, there is the additional knowledge of international flying. Things such as NAT tracks, SLOP, ITCZ, inflight broadcast in Africa/China, metric conversion, FIR boundary crossings, air defense clearance, oceanic clearance, Etc (excessive use of Etc.)
It's not that these things are overly difficult and can't be taught, its the knowledge of knowing that you need to know. Recognizing that your flight plan takes you over PURPA and you should probably review your driftdown procedures.
I was fortunate that during my time at EK I was able to fly with some very experienced and knowledgable Captains that taught and mentored me in the early times. Very fortunate because when EK started hiring DECs again I found myself having to assist the new Captains in the same manner.
Now due to poor working conditions EK is losing the type of experience that helped to guide me during the beginning of my international career, and it sounds as though Atlas is making the same mistake. They are failing to realize that no matter how good their training department is, the real instruction occurs during line flying from experienced Captains offering advice and suggestions to the less experienced.
I personally would love the type of flying done at Atlas, I'm currently back in the US as a captain on CRJs, but I just can't rationalize accepting the pay for what you're being asked to do and operating in what has become a toxic work environment. If the company can change before a legacy calls I would love the opportunity to learn from your experienced Captains, assuming any are left by that time...
I spent 4 years as a regional FO before I went to EK in Dubai. If I had been taken from right seat in an RJ and dropped in the right seat of a 737/320 at DL,UA, AA, etc, there would have very little learning curve to overcome. With the exception of learning a new aircraft and SOPS, Which comes with every new job, there was very little new information to absorb. I was already knowledgeable of US airspace, terminology, airport procedures, weather patterns, divert options, etc.
When I went to EK and started flying internationally I was amazed at the things I didn't know, that I didn't know. In addition to learning how to fly a widebody aircraft, which requires a more definite plan in dealing with inertia and energy management, which simply is not a factor in flying RJs, there is the additional knowledge of international flying. Things such as NAT tracks, SLOP, ITCZ, inflight broadcast in Africa/China, metric conversion, FIR boundary crossings, air defense clearance, oceanic clearance, Etc (excessive use of Etc.)
It's not that these things are overly difficult and can't be taught, its the knowledge of knowing that you need to know. Recognizing that your flight plan takes you over PURPA and you should probably review your driftdown procedures.
I was fortunate that during my time at EK I was able to fly with some very experienced and knowledgable Captains that taught and mentored me in the early times. Very fortunate because when EK started hiring DECs again I found myself having to assist the new Captains in the same manner.
Now due to poor working conditions EK is losing the type of experience that helped to guide me during the beginning of my international career, and it sounds as though Atlas is making the same mistake. They are failing to realize that no matter how good their training department is, the real instruction occurs during line flying from experienced Captains offering advice and suggestions to the less experienced.
I personally would love the type of flying done at Atlas, I'm currently back in the US as a captain on CRJs, but I just can't rationalize accepting the pay for what you're being asked to do and operating in what has become a toxic work environment. If the company can change before a legacy calls I would love the opportunity to learn from your experienced Captains, assuming any are left by that time...
02-16-2017, 06:12 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 293
Ok just to throw my .02 into the argument.
I spent 4 years as a regional FO before I went to EK in Dubai. If I had been taken from right seat in an RJ and dropped in the right seat of a 737/320 at DL,UA, AA, etc, there would have very little learning curve to overcome. With the exception of learning a new aircraft and SOPS, Which comes with every new job, there was very little new information to absorb. I was already knowledgeable of US airspace, terminology, airport procedures, weather patterns, divert options, etc.
When I went to EK and started flying internationally I was amazed at the things I didn't know, that I didn't know. In addition to learning how to fly a widebody aircraft, which requires a more definite plan in dealing with inertia and energy management, which simply is not a factor in flying RJs, there is the additional knowledge of international flying. Things such as NAT tracks, SLOP, ITCZ, inflight broadcast in Africa/China, metric conversion, FIR boundary crossings, air defense clearance, oceanic clearance, Etc (excessive use of Etc.)
It's not that these things are overly difficult and can't be taught, its the knowledge of knowing that you need to know. Recognizing that your flight plan takes you over PURPA and you should probably review your driftdown procedures.
I was fortunate that during my time at EK I was able to fly with some very experienced and knowledgable Captains that taught and mentored me in the early times. Very fortunate because when EK started hiring DECs again I found myself having to assist the new Captains in the same manner.
Now due to poor working conditions EK is losing the type of experience that helped to guide me during the beginning of my international career, and it sounds as though Atlas is making the same mistake. They are failing to realize that no matter how good their training department is, the real instruction occurs during line flying from experienced Captains offering advice and suggestions to the less experienced.
I personally would love the type of flying done at Atlas, I'm currently back in the US as a captain on CRJs, but I just can't rationalize accepting the pay for what you're being asked to do and operating in what has become a toxic work environment. If the company can change before a legacy calls I would love the opportunity to learn from your experienced Captains, assuming any are left by that time...
I spent 4 years as a regional FO before I went to EK in Dubai. If I had been taken from right seat in an RJ and dropped in the right seat of a 737/320 at DL,UA, AA, etc, there would have very little learning curve to overcome. With the exception of learning a new aircraft and SOPS, Which comes with every new job, there was very little new information to absorb. I was already knowledgeable of US airspace, terminology, airport procedures, weather patterns, divert options, etc.
When I went to EK and started flying internationally I was amazed at the things I didn't know, that I didn't know. In addition to learning how to fly a widebody aircraft, which requires a more definite plan in dealing with inertia and energy management, which simply is not a factor in flying RJs, there is the additional knowledge of international flying. Things such as NAT tracks, SLOP, ITCZ, inflight broadcast in Africa/China, metric conversion, FIR boundary crossings, air defense clearance, oceanic clearance, Etc (excessive use of Etc.)
It's not that these things are overly difficult and can't be taught, its the knowledge of knowing that you need to know. Recognizing that your flight plan takes you over PURPA and you should probably review your driftdown procedures.
I was fortunate that during my time at EK I was able to fly with some very experienced and knowledgable Captains that taught and mentored me in the early times. Very fortunate because when EK started hiring DECs again I found myself having to assist the new Captains in the same manner.
Now due to poor working conditions EK is losing the type of experience that helped to guide me during the beginning of my international career, and it sounds as though Atlas is making the same mistake. They are failing to realize that no matter how good their training department is, the real instruction occurs during line flying from experienced Captains offering advice and suggestions to the less experienced.
I personally would love the type of flying done at Atlas, I'm currently back in the US as a captain on CRJs, but I just can't rationalize accepting the pay for what you're being asked to do and operating in what has become a toxic work environment. If the company can change before a legacy calls I would love the opportunity to learn from your experienced Captains, assuming any are left by that time...
^^^^excellent post^^^^
02-16-2017, 09:57 PM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: 767
Posts: 84
02-17-2017, 02:54 AM
Whale whisperer
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Position: 744 Capt
Posts: 170
You make it seem like the last 250 pilots hired here are the dregs of society....give them some credit. I AGREE that nothing can compare to a lifetime of experience....but pay won't automatically attract those with a lifetime of experience. In all likelihood, those with the lifetime of experience are going to stay parked where they are currently sitting.
Yes.....a legacy candidate with no CA time will face just as many challenges as a new hire here would with respect to a few differences. A 14hr flight and an ops bulletin saying "this switch should be on prior to flight" is not hard to comprehend. Are there no dmi's or ops bulletins on the 747's at other carriers?
I get what you are trying to say but in a "very controlled passenger domestic environment the WX is just as extreme as anywhere and with regards to sensitive cargo......are passengers not sensitive cargo? And what is so hard about plotting? and radio calls? So what you are saying is that legacy pilots have learners permits and we mighty Atlas pilots are the semi drivers?!!!.............(withdrawn).
I am not taking anything away from our plight to continue to fight for better work rules and pay rates but it is frustrating that guys on this forum seem to exaggerate to such an extent to make it seem that we do a job SOOOOOOOOO much different than the legacies that we should be paid more. Yes we should be paid more. But our operations are not so drastically different. They move metal...we move metal, farther.
Yes.....a legacy candidate with no CA time will face just as many challenges as a new hire here would with respect to a few differences. A 14hr flight and an ops bulletin saying "this switch should be on prior to flight" is not hard to comprehend. Are there no dmi's or ops bulletins on the 747's at other carriers?
I get what you are trying to say but in a "very controlled passenger domestic environment the WX is just as extreme as anywhere and with regards to sensitive cargo......are passengers not sensitive cargo? And what is so hard about plotting? and radio calls? So what you are saying is that legacy pilots have learners permits and we mighty Atlas pilots are the semi drivers?!!!.............(withdrawn).
I am not taking anything away from our plight to continue to fight for better work rules and pay rates but it is frustrating that guys on this forum seem to exaggerate to such an extent to make it seem that we do a job SOOOOOOOOO much different than the legacies that we should be paid more. Yes we should be paid more. But our operations are not so drastically different. They move metal...we move metal, farther.
02-17-2017, 03:52 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Left & Right
Posts: 187
Originally Posted by Davetastic
...guys on this forum seem to exaggerate to such an extent to make it seem that we do a job SOOOOOOOOO much different...
You're kidding right? Do you actually work here? How many different variants of a 747 or a 767 do they fly at other carriers? How often do they swap, daily, between passenger and cargo ops and between day and night ops while transiting the globe under a crappy contract with shoddy work rules/minimal contractual protections and declining experience levels? How often does a pilot at legacy carrier fly a 747-8, a 747-400, a BCF and an LCF in one pattern? How often do they get min rest while doing this? How often do they circle the globe in less than a week? How often do they circle the globe twice in a month? How often do they sit the 3 kinds of reserve that we do and get paid below industry standard for it or not paid at all (R-1)? How often do the legacy guys have to play travel agent for themselves because the responsible party didn't set up air or ground trans and couldn't bother to make sure the hotel was squared away after an 18-20 hour day? How often does a legacy guy have to fight to enforce a shoddy CBA against an entity that pushes its boundaries at every opportunity? Your right, it's basically the same job... (insert sarcastic tone here) why should we get paid more? Heck we should thankful for what we have... maybe we should even seek to work for less because our job is actually easier... it's not like we carry people or anything...
Look, we have a tough job and we get paid garbage compared to our peers, but lets not go off the reservation trying to make people feel sorry for us. It only serves to undermine our position. Our argument for parity is strong enough without having to resort to gross exaggerations of our prowess in the cockpit. Besides, the people who need convincing aren't listening anyway.
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