Southern Air B-747 or Contract B-767 Flying
12-29-2005, 10:00 AM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Southern Air B-747 or Contract B-767 Flying
Requesting input and "even-keel" thoughts on Southern Air B-747 versus Contract B-767 flying, aside from the pay differences and being on the raod for 20 days.
I'm in a position to either fly the B-767 for a established Asian Carrier being based overseas (starting out as an B-767 Type Rated F/O and Captain after 4 years). The contract is very long-term (can you believe 6 years after completion of training which is 7 months long, almost as long as my first USAF enlistment in the early 80s) and has a high non-prorated "contract-bond" for any early departures. The flying appears to be good.
The other option is the opportunity to fly for Southern Air Cargo. I live in the US and prefer to stay here. However, I have not heard anything positive about Southern Air. Every person I''ve personally talked to, have not given me any good attributes.
What really is Southern Air like? Do pilots "bail" quickly from Southern Air and use them as a "stepping stone" to to other carriers? Is Southern "quick with the ax" and what's the relationship between the pilots and management? What's the pilots like, since I hear nothing positive about the company, what type of pilots fly there?
I'm sure there's got to be something good about Southern Air......right?
I'm a retired USAF F-15 Driver in my mid-40s, so I'm considering my age and long-term productivity limitations with the age 60 rule here in the US.
Thanks, and I appreciate any honest and reasonable inputs and opinions.
I'm in a position to either fly the B-767 for a established Asian Carrier being based overseas (starting out as an B-767 Type Rated F/O and Captain after 4 years). The contract is very long-term (can you believe 6 years after completion of training which is 7 months long, almost as long as my first USAF enlistment in the early 80s) and has a high non-prorated "contract-bond" for any early departures. The flying appears to be good.
The other option is the opportunity to fly for Southern Air Cargo. I live in the US and prefer to stay here. However, I have not heard anything positive about Southern Air. Every person I''ve personally talked to, have not given me any good attributes.
What really is Southern Air like? Do pilots "bail" quickly from Southern Air and use them as a "stepping stone" to to other carriers? Is Southern "quick with the ax" and what's the relationship between the pilots and management? What's the pilots like, since I hear nothing positive about the company, what type of pilots fly there?
I'm sure there's got to be something good about Southern Air......right?
I'm a retired USAF F-15 Driver in my mid-40s, so I'm considering my age and long-term productivity limitations with the age 60 rule here in the US.
Thanks, and I appreciate any honest and reasonable inputs and opinions.
12-29-2005, 05:55 PM
#2
On Reserve
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 16
I share your concerns about Southen Air. You would think "one person" would say it's a good place to work.
I've been digging around the past few days and talked to several people who have worked there (the place I got my Type Rating contacted several of their graduates who went on to fly with Southern Air for me), regretfully everything I heard from them has been negative. They have no ax to grind, they just thought the working and corporate environment was not condusive to a positive work atmosphere, therefore moved on to other air carriers where they are now happy to be at.
I'm looking for a New Years Day miracle that another air carrier will call me before the interview next week.
In all do fairness for pilots who really want to make Southern Air a career choice, I don't want to go to an air carrier then eject on them right after I get in, should another air carrier calls. At least you have a choice.
I've been digging around the past few days and talked to several people who have worked there (the place I got my Type Rating contacted several of their graduates who went on to fly with Southern Air for me), regretfully everything I heard from them has been negative. They have no ax to grind, they just thought the working and corporate environment was not condusive to a positive work atmosphere, therefore moved on to other air carriers where they are now happy to be at.
I'm looking for a New Years Day miracle that another air carrier will call me before the interview next week.
In all do fairness for pilots who really want to make Southern Air a career choice, I don't want to go to an air carrier then eject on them right after I get in, should another air carrier calls. At least you have a choice.
12-29-2005, 06:07 PM
#3
AAmerican Way for AA Pay
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: B-737 Pilot
Posts: 1,617
Contract flying is NOT stable, Snoop. At least SouthernAir is a full-time gig flying B-747s on international routes. I have done both, and can tell you contract flying is'nt the way to go.
PM me, I'll fill you in more. I hear Southern has high turnover and lousy work rules, but quick upgrade and you could step over to Polar/Atlas eventually. Full-time beats part-time, short-term contract jobs anyday. They can always pull the carpet out from under you.
PM me, I'll fill you in more. I hear Southern has high turnover and lousy work rules, but quick upgrade and you could step over to Polar/Atlas eventually. Full-time beats part-time, short-term contract jobs anyday. They can always pull the carpet out from under you.
12-29-2005, 08:02 PM
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
During the 3 months of your life away from home in their “training program”. You can’t go home. No jumpseat agreements, and they will NOT buy you a ticket home until your training is complete. Some guys buy their own tickets or weasel out a jumpseat somehow.
You stand a pretty good chance of being sent to IOE right out of training from MIA. Another two weeks plus away from home… Initial training can realistically take you 3 months or more in some cases. During that time you are NOT getting paid. That’s right NO pay. You get per diem only.
All schedules are reserve with 20 days on. They will call you out and stick you in a hotel if they don’t need you. They can extend you, and you do not get your days off back. Only 3 hours extra (per day) for the extension into the off days… To me $150.00 does not mean much when you have not seen your house for 2 ½ weeks +.
You can get hosed on the bid and get two back to back 20 day schedules…. How do you pack for a 40 day trip? What do you tell you wife?
No deadhead pay first year. Does not sound like a big deal? Wait till you have to deadhead to Hong Kong and Korea a couple times a month, and you don’t get 1 cent for it. Yes, nothing like deadheading for 14 ½ hours for free! (woo hoo!)
The do have a 401K – However there is NO company matching.
They have Great West medical. Family plan is $180.00 per pay period. ($360.00/month) I suggest you log onto greatwest.com and make sure there are providers in your area. Or else you are gonna pay out ying yang.
Airplanes are all B-747-200’s. Three with Carrousel INS (only holds 9 waypoints – lots of fun constantly loading the lats and longs). The other 74 has the Canadian Marconi system which is nice.
No duty day limit. Some trips will have you on duty 24+ hours and you will log 12 hours or more in the seat for that day. (Lots of checking the CB’s going on.)
Maintenance… nothing positive to state there. Lots of little MEL stickers to count.
The Chief Pilot is a nice guy.
The VP of Op’s is Mike Hartley. (no comment)
All the PFE’s are a hoot and good guys.
Captains... Southern has more then it’s fair share of A-Holes and Scabs in the left seat.
That being said, there are a few good Captains there as well.
You will CONSTANTLY hear of how they are getting more airplanes. That is managements favorite line over there. Believe it when you see it.
60 hour guarantee (after completion of IOE) which you will not break most of the time. So, do the math and see what you will be making… (not pretty)
You are home based. Which is a positive. They purchase you an airline ticket to and from work. You keep the miles. However, as stated above… no pay for dead heading to and from work for first year.
No training contract. No seniority resignation. So you are under no obligation to stay.
You stand a pretty good chance of being sent to IOE right out of training from MIA. Another two weeks plus away from home… Initial training can realistically take you 3 months or more in some cases. During that time you are NOT getting paid. That’s right NO pay. You get per diem only.
All schedules are reserve with 20 days on. They will call you out and stick you in a hotel if they don’t need you. They can extend you, and you do not get your days off back. Only 3 hours extra (per day) for the extension into the off days… To me $150.00 does not mean much when you have not seen your house for 2 ½ weeks +.
You can get hosed on the bid and get two back to back 20 day schedules…. How do you pack for a 40 day trip? What do you tell you wife?
No deadhead pay first year. Does not sound like a big deal? Wait till you have to deadhead to Hong Kong and Korea a couple times a month, and you don’t get 1 cent for it. Yes, nothing like deadheading for 14 ½ hours for free! (woo hoo!)
The do have a 401K – However there is NO company matching.
They have Great West medical. Family plan is $180.00 per pay period. ($360.00/month) I suggest you log onto greatwest.com and make sure there are providers in your area. Or else you are gonna pay out ying yang.
Airplanes are all B-747-200’s. Three with Carrousel INS (only holds 9 waypoints – lots of fun constantly loading the lats and longs). The other 74 has the Canadian Marconi system which is nice.
No duty day limit. Some trips will have you on duty 24+ hours and you will log 12 hours or more in the seat for that day. (Lots of checking the CB’s going on.)
Maintenance… nothing positive to state there. Lots of little MEL stickers to count.
The Chief Pilot is a nice guy.
The VP of Op’s is Mike Hartley. (no comment)
All the PFE’s are a hoot and good guys.
Captains... Southern has more then it’s fair share of A-Holes and Scabs in the left seat.
That being said, there are a few good Captains there as well.
You will CONSTANTLY hear of how they are getting more airplanes. That is managements favorite line over there. Believe it when you see it.
60 hour guarantee (after completion of IOE) which you will not break most of the time. So, do the math and see what you will be making… (not pretty)
You are home based. Which is a positive. They purchase you an airline ticket to and from work. You keep the miles. However, as stated above… no pay for dead heading to and from work for first year.
No training contract. No seniority resignation. So you are under no obligation to stay.
12-29-2005, 09:44 PM
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
Thank you everyone for your "even-keel" input and response, it's greatly appreciated.
Wow, lot's of serious thinking to do. Thank you very much "Amigo" for you detailed response.
Which begs me to ask perhaps a dumb question: With corporate culture like this, what type of pilots are being interviewed for Southern Air? Are they kids (no offense to the younger generation) trying to jump ship from a small commuter, furloughed pilots or pilots that's had problem elsewhere in their past and can't get on anywhere else? Again, no offense to anybody out there, and my apologies if I offended anyone. I just can't figure it, why? That's a lot to sacrifice the quality of life, especially in the first year, just to fly a B-747.
Is deadheading with Southern Air, Economy Class, holy-crap, that's a long time to sit in back of a cabin twice a month across the pond? OK, so it's a bit better than sitting in back of a C-130 or C-5.
One additional concern I realized today about companies such as Southen, World, Evergreen etc., which has an extensive CRAF DoD contract is when things wind down in the Middle East (let's all hope so, being a retired military and in flying sorties in the sand-box, I've seen enough carnage to last me 3 lifetimes), when the DoD contracts dwindle, the first thing these air carriers do, is layoff pilots since they are so dependent on the CRAF contacts. Evergreen had a big layoff a few years back until things perked up again in the sandbox.
I've applied around prior to getting out of the USAF and being a big client of the DoD, went to check out Evergreen International in Oregon. They offered me a B-747 earlier this year with a F/O position, but after doing some due deligence with other USAF pilots that went to fly with them, the corporate culture (Mr. Del Smith owner and Flight Management) was just plain "strange" almost "cult-like". Just not your oridinary weird, but really strange. I told my friend who also decided not to fly with Evergreen at that time, that there must be a giant tub of Grape Kool-Aid somewhere in the Evergreen Offices (remember Jones Town, Guyana). So I thought I would just keep fishing and looking.
I guess when you hit the mid-40s though, even with extensive flying experience and a squeaky clean record, one's options starts to get limited and somewhat refined. Today's employment market isn't as wide-open to pilots in our age group as it once was, especially here in the United States. Perhaps, I shouldn't be too picky. It is frustrating (but more power to them and wish them the best) to hear a person with 1/3 the experience receive an interview invitation and offer and we're left wondering huh...., what criteria the airlines use, who knows. It's probably a HR person shaking a Big Magic 8 Ball.
Perhaps my technique to get an interview here in the US can be more aggressive. I realize that it's a "not what you know, but who you know". I'm perhaps foolishly attempting this by getting interviewed and hired based only on my own merits. No favors, no bending over with the KY Jelly and no guilt-trip. That way, I feel no obligations to anybody, no hurt careers of my friends who recommended me, should I decide to move to another employer. Noble, but probably the wrong technique, considering I have a lot of friends flying in the industry who could probably come to bat for me.
On the Contract Flying front, one thing positive about flying in Japan is that the age restriction is now 63 going up to 65, so long as you have been employed by the company by age 52. This is definetely a plus. I've flown with the 18th TFW at Kadena AFB, so I'm pretty familiar over there. I just hate having a contract-bond over my head, it's like being held hostage. The B-767 is at least good dependable airplane.
Cathay and NCA seems like a good place. I hear that Cathay has a unique cultural blend.
I've never worked as a "gun-for-hire", so I'm not quite sure what the instability is with contract flying.
Anyway, many thanks for all your sincere and honest inputs. Please keep posting them, it really helps.
Thanks again! Snoop
Wow, lot's of serious thinking to do. Thank you very much "Amigo" for you detailed response.
Which begs me to ask perhaps a dumb question: With corporate culture like this, what type of pilots are being interviewed for Southern Air? Are they kids (no offense to the younger generation) trying to jump ship from a small commuter, furloughed pilots or pilots that's had problem elsewhere in their past and can't get on anywhere else? Again, no offense to anybody out there, and my apologies if I offended anyone. I just can't figure it, why? That's a lot to sacrifice the quality of life, especially in the first year, just to fly a B-747.
Is deadheading with Southern Air, Economy Class, holy-crap, that's a long time to sit in back of a cabin twice a month across the pond? OK, so it's a bit better than sitting in back of a C-130 or C-5.
One additional concern I realized today about companies such as Southen, World, Evergreen etc., which has an extensive CRAF DoD contract is when things wind down in the Middle East (let's all hope so, being a retired military and in flying sorties in the sand-box, I've seen enough carnage to last me 3 lifetimes), when the DoD contracts dwindle, the first thing these air carriers do, is layoff pilots since they are so dependent on the CRAF contacts. Evergreen had a big layoff a few years back until things perked up again in the sandbox.
I've applied around prior to getting out of the USAF and being a big client of the DoD, went to check out Evergreen International in Oregon. They offered me a B-747 earlier this year with a F/O position, but after doing some due deligence with other USAF pilots that went to fly with them, the corporate culture (Mr. Del Smith owner and Flight Management) was just plain "strange" almost "cult-like". Just not your oridinary weird, but really strange. I told my friend who also decided not to fly with Evergreen at that time, that there must be a giant tub of Grape Kool-Aid somewhere in the Evergreen Offices (remember Jones Town, Guyana). So I thought I would just keep fishing and looking.
I guess when you hit the mid-40s though, even with extensive flying experience and a squeaky clean record, one's options starts to get limited and somewhat refined. Today's employment market isn't as wide-open to pilots in our age group as it once was, especially here in the United States. Perhaps, I shouldn't be too picky. It is frustrating (but more power to them and wish them the best) to hear a person with 1/3 the experience receive an interview invitation and offer and we're left wondering huh...., what criteria the airlines use, who knows. It's probably a HR person shaking a Big Magic 8 Ball.
Perhaps my technique to get an interview here in the US can be more aggressive. I realize that it's a "not what you know, but who you know". I'm perhaps foolishly attempting this by getting interviewed and hired based only on my own merits. No favors, no bending over with the KY Jelly and no guilt-trip. That way, I feel no obligations to anybody, no hurt careers of my friends who recommended me, should I decide to move to another employer. Noble, but probably the wrong technique, considering I have a lot of friends flying in the industry who could probably come to bat for me.
On the Contract Flying front, one thing positive about flying in Japan is that the age restriction is now 63 going up to 65, so long as you have been employed by the company by age 52. This is definetely a plus. I've flown with the 18th TFW at Kadena AFB, so I'm pretty familiar over there. I just hate having a contract-bond over my head, it's like being held hostage. The B-767 is at least good dependable airplane.
Cathay and NCA seems like a good place. I hear that Cathay has a unique cultural blend.
I've never worked as a "gun-for-hire", so I'm not quite sure what the instability is with contract flying.
Anyway, many thanks for all your sincere and honest inputs. Please keep posting them, it really helps.
Thanks again! Snoop
12-30-2005, 01:31 AM
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
Dude, I'm just a college student flying a piper and it doesnt take me long to figure out that Southern Air is not a good choice. Even I know that you have to have a good management and support from the company to enjoy your work.
Your question seems wrong am I missing something? You are a retired AirForce guy and are looking at jobs at 2nd rate cargo airlines? Don't airlines beg for Airfoce guys now? Seems like you could do a whole lot better. Maybe cargo flying is your thing but there are so many options out there.
Your question seems wrong am I missing something? You are a retired AirForce guy and are looking at jobs at 2nd rate cargo airlines? Don't airlines beg for Airfoce guys now? Seems like you could do a whole lot better. Maybe cargo flying is your thing but there are so many options out there.
12-30-2005, 09:50 AM
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
To the college student B73H still flying Pipers:
I'm writing this to you as I would counsel my child if they asked me the same question.
B73H, you get older, wiser and as you mature, things aren't as simplistic and two dimensional such as staying in college, attempting to acheive good grades, working hard at a non-career oriented position, going home to parents during the Holidays and flying Pipers as a hobby (or future career choice) during the spare hours. But that's OK, that's what college students are suppose to do and think.
Things aren't that easy as you put it, for example to say: "Hey Mr. FedEx or Hey Mr. Continental, I''m a former/retired F-15 Pilot and because of that, you have to hire me NOW" or go to a Contract Services a tell them "Thanks, I'll take your $110,000 per yer job, but I want to be based in the US, because I don't want to move my family overseas per your contract and offer".
I have several buddies who I flew with in the USAF and they went on to fly the Space Shuttle as Pilot and Missions Commander, who are now retiring out of NASA with the same predicament I am in. In fact, I got a call from one of them this morning about my contract flying offer since they have not heard from any of the airlines that they applied for, and quite frankly, they're getting worried about where the next paycheck will be coming from (government retirement wage scale now-a-days or even in the past doesn't mean you retire out in the beaches of Tahiti or Monaco).
"Young man or person", life isn't as easy as you make it, and cetain choices aren't easily available. As you get older with a family, mortgage and other traditional responsibillities, "quality of life" issues along with career goals with a age limitations becomes paramount (especially as a pilot).
B73H, slight education here, line-pilots are one of very few (and I say very few) white collar occupations, where experience level does not always mean higher wages. With collective bargaining or a "set" wage scales, unlike Doctors, Dentist, Lawyers, Accountants and Corporate Mangament whose experience levels equals the commensurate wage offered to them based on their expertise and experience. This is in most part is non-existant in the pilot-world unless the corporation such is Boeing or Lockheed is seeking a test-pilot and wages are negotiable. It's take it or leave it, if you don't want it, I've got 1,000 more pilots willing fly for half the asking wages or to pay me to fly my airplanes. Though at this point, personally not having flying experience with a collective bargaining operations, the matters becomes a very "hot and touchy" subject. You can see it happening with UPS currently. Though at this point are really don't have an opinion on collective bargaining, it's base point of view is "quality of life".
Think of it this way, you just graduated out of college, have just enough hours of apply to a company such as commuter/regional (you have no family to support, no mortgage or other worries of life) and get hired on, you'll be paid "exactly" the same "LOW" wage that a Space Shuttle Mission Commander, retired Military with 8,000+ high performance flight hours (who has a family, mortgage, 3 kids one them a sick child and a wife who doesn't want to live in a foreign country) will make.
That's why many of the furloughed pilots and retired military has gotten out of aviation totally. I could rattle off at least two dozen buddies who no longer fly with condition such as this. But for some, with their backs against the wall and willing to continue aviation career, they are willing to sacrifice the quality of life issues and be employed at places such as Southern Air (more power to them, and I respect their choices based on what their needs are).
My advice B73H, "Stay in school, get good grades, stay out of trouble, graduate and have fun flying your Pipers".
I'm writing this to you as I would counsel my child if they asked me the same question.
B73H, you get older, wiser and as you mature, things aren't as simplistic and two dimensional such as staying in college, attempting to acheive good grades, working hard at a non-career oriented position, going home to parents during the Holidays and flying Pipers as a hobby (or future career choice) during the spare hours. But that's OK, that's what college students are suppose to do and think.
Things aren't that easy as you put it, for example to say: "Hey Mr. FedEx or Hey Mr. Continental, I''m a former/retired F-15 Pilot and because of that, you have to hire me NOW" or go to a Contract Services a tell them "Thanks, I'll take your $110,000 per yer job, but I want to be based in the US, because I don't want to move my family overseas per your contract and offer".
I have several buddies who I flew with in the USAF and they went on to fly the Space Shuttle as Pilot and Missions Commander, who are now retiring out of NASA with the same predicament I am in. In fact, I got a call from one of them this morning about my contract flying offer since they have not heard from any of the airlines that they applied for, and quite frankly, they're getting worried about where the next paycheck will be coming from (government retirement wage scale now-a-days or even in the past doesn't mean you retire out in the beaches of Tahiti or Monaco).
"Young man or person", life isn't as easy as you make it, and cetain choices aren't easily available. As you get older with a family, mortgage and other traditional responsibillities, "quality of life" issues along with career goals with a age limitations becomes paramount (especially as a pilot).
B73H, slight education here, line-pilots are one of very few (and I say very few) white collar occupations, where experience level does not always mean higher wages. With collective bargaining or a "set" wage scales, unlike Doctors, Dentist, Lawyers, Accountants and Corporate Mangament whose experience levels equals the commensurate wage offered to them based on their expertise and experience. This is in most part is non-existant in the pilot-world unless the corporation such is Boeing or Lockheed is seeking a test-pilot and wages are negotiable. It's take it or leave it, if you don't want it, I've got 1,000 more pilots willing fly for half the asking wages or to pay me to fly my airplanes. Though at this point, personally not having flying experience with a collective bargaining operations, the matters becomes a very "hot and touchy" subject. You can see it happening with UPS currently. Though at this point are really don't have an opinion on collective bargaining, it's base point of view is "quality of life".
Think of it this way, you just graduated out of college, have just enough hours of apply to a company such as commuter/regional (you have no family to support, no mortgage or other worries of life) and get hired on, you'll be paid "exactly" the same "LOW" wage that a Space Shuttle Mission Commander, retired Military with 8,000+ high performance flight hours (who has a family, mortgage, 3 kids one them a sick child and a wife who doesn't want to live in a foreign country) will make.
That's why many of the furloughed pilots and retired military has gotten out of aviation totally. I could rattle off at least two dozen buddies who no longer fly with condition such as this. But for some, with their backs against the wall and willing to continue aviation career, they are willing to sacrifice the quality of life issues and be employed at places such as Southern Air (more power to them, and I respect their choices based on what their needs are).
My advice B73H, "Stay in school, get good grades, stay out of trouble, graduate and have fun flying your Pipers".
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