DrivinTheDash

I know you've been told this before, but you absolutely don't have to reorder the list to not give credit to flows for time at Eagle; all you have to do is stovepipe the list. It's no different than claiming that you can't consider status and category without reordering the list, since people aren't in status/category order on the current lists.

eaglefly

Don't need to be told this now (or then). I understand stovepiping too. If they stovepipe me more junior because of longevity due to flow, I drag non-flows at LAA junior to me down with me (receding tide drains the harbor). If they don't (at least as much) or say give more credit to a more junior Letter T, I get stovepiped higher and a rising tide lifts all boats more senior to pilot X's stovepiped position.

S & C, longevity depending on weight are highly variable and can impact the list differently in different places. We shall see. Doesn't matter for me though as I will be at the very bottom and soon furloughed.

Upsddown

Is this your sarcasm again?

Upsddown

I think that is the misrepresentation. There are those that are saying the East swept the board. Don't think that is exactly what they are meaning. Everyone expected the East to get hammered in this process more than the other two groups. By not using the NIC and by getting LOS adjustments they made out much better than anyone expected.
That is not saying they "swept the board" or that the LAA pilots or West pilots got hammered to the point the East got everything. Read between the lines. It's still going to be a category/class percentage merge with heavy LOS weighting. That's what moves the East up the list. But remember they are an older group therefore they will retire rather quickly so I don't see how this "hammers" the West and LAA groups like some are stating. Not using the NIC is an obvious loss for the West.

Route66

Well thats not where I heard it from. And from what I see with events happening out West (no matter how you parse it), Eric Ferguson quitting the board to spend more time with AOL and the objection to the settlement with the West in the Charlotte LMRDA lawsuit (I believe the objectors know more than meets the eye, hence the objection) and from sources that I have spoken with, the specific particulars they don't seem to have or emerged yet, (or they are simply not going to reveal more on the thought of revealing the source) but the generalities of which I have mentioned are what are the general consensus from both LAA/LUS point again to LOS being the much greater of the two over S & C and three lists.

So its only logical that both the LAA and the AWA positions are not favored in the decision. Details of a more specific nature are elusive.

This mirrors the experience Eischen and Jaffe have had over the years as what seems the most workable solution in pilot integrations.

Route66

And thats the whole of it. But that is NOT the way the LAA/AWA sides will probably see it. To them its a magnanimous defeat and hence the wardrums of lawsuits are revealing their clouds on the horizon.

Seat belt sign: ON.

Vendetta

I actually heard it from a pretty close friend reliable source that's been right on issues in the past. And btw my last name is not king I never heard of him being I never go on c&r.. Maybe I'm wrong and he was lying to me but if the east did do decently like I hear then it will appear a windfall. On another forum I go on from time to time I had a west poster tell me "all east pilots would be flying right seat 190 up and down the coast" no joke. So if they did use heavy favoring of length of service it will appear like a windfall especially with people expecting the east to get hammered.

eaglefly

Well let's see regarding the present claims;

East vs. West : The primary and really ONLY litmus is the Nicolau award. No Nic, means East clobbers West. Not only that, the reference was West has no access to "East metal". That's the entire fleet, both from sharing in advancement of retirements to narrow body upgrades, through wide body access to include even domicile access absent another mechanism like displacements. I'd call that a clean sweep in that direction (No Nic PLUS no access to ANYTHING on the East).

That was Airmail/Vendatta's claim.

East vs. LAA : S & C benefits LUS greatly over LAA along with another claim East has higher percentage of widebodies vs. LAA, along with the claim that the East are essentially the arbitrators fair-haired boys of favor due to rapid retirements. That benefits the East Nicolau pilots over LAA. "Heavy" LOS weighting decimates junior LAA at the expense of East 3rd listers and even West F/O's. This is all essentially the exact blueprint argument of the East committee in both directions leaving...........well, exactly what do the West and LAA have left to get ?

Oh yeah, they get to keep their jobs.

You to make some great points, but this isn't one of them IMO. Considering the attitude of the arbs toward the East during the West committee inclusion hearings and logic, I'm not buying these claims. Sure, anything is possible in arbitration, but I think this is just tiddlywinks/psyops as should the East end up getting handed their hats, it will be too late to poke anyone in the eye due to sour grapes as this time there is no "end run" play for them to make around the award.

eaglefly

Again, I expect No Nic (in pure form) and so East DOES make a HUGE win. I also see NONE of the three final proposals being adopted, so yes, to say they didn't use AAPSIC's model (that has the Nic) would be something I'd agree with. As for actual stovepiping, S & C and longevity/LOS weighting, that can vary all along the list making individual pilots, small groups of pilots or less likely large blocks of pilots placement variable along the ISL.

Again, I think some are taking SOME factual info of generalities and weaving the perfect result for themselves prematurely.

eaglefly

I expect no windfalls and no "hammering" aside from the likelihood of the Nic not being adopted because its use is too destabilizing due to the complexities of balancing the forward and backward looking equities of three groups as opposed to two. I see a "hybrid" list that is fairly homogenous in mixture based on the above goals and that's simply one opinion. The only difference seems to be sedate patience by the West and LAA while the East sounds like they are barking like dogs in the crew rooms, cockpits and on line with gleeful joy at their impending boons.