Al Czervik

I'm wondering how will be many will still be discussing "NIC vs DOH" over dinner at shady acres in retirement.

PurpleTurtle

It's all in the contract, unless it isn't. The BOA can use the Nic if they want.

Saul Rosenberg

They probably will. In 2005, back when I was working on my CFII, Phoenix and Las Vegas were the absolute rock stars of all hubs in the US. America West Airlines almost ruled those hubs -- except for SWA, who essentially allowed AWA to exist because they had bigger fish to fry. ANYWAY, focus here on the massive revenue potential of Phoenix and Las Vegas and don't let logic get in the way, and you'll see that George Nicolau was right to look into the future and see that AWA pilots would soon be flying A330's all over the northern hemisphere. Conveniently, and with a lot of help from GE and Air Canada and other investors organized by US Airways management and not Doug Parker, AWA merged with US Airways, who actually did that type of flying! It was, uh, how should we say? Serendipitous! And it made Nicolau's job super easy: Just afford the AWA pilots the right to seniority dates they could have never naturally attained (because they coincided with their graduation from 8th grade. Hey, that's an important ceremony!), and in short order the entire AWA pilot group would occupy the top half of the US Air list. Sounds about right for these aviators. After all...REMEMBER....they were flying in and out of PHX and LAS, day in and day out, hot, sweaty professionals generating revenues untold! (That's code for "good accounting.")

Furthermore, Nicolau looked even further into the future and saw that placing US Airways pilots hired in 1989 junior to the America West pilots hired in 2005 would be perfectly appropriate when the combined airline's management would be tapped by the brain trust of the Allied Pilots Association to run their troubled, archaic airline out of bankruptcy and up out of the ditch next to the dead-end road that was Horton's business plan.

Nothing says "Fair and Equitable" better in this scenario than an entire party being awarded the ability to hold Captain positions at the new combined carrier, especially and because of the reality that the pilot group in question used to be the number two carrier at...where?....that's right: Phoenix and Las Vegas! High rollers to Palace Station! Food connoisseurs to the Luxor! It was only a matter of time before America West Airlines placed a BIG order for 330/350/777/787 aircraft to handle the emerging global demand for that special thing they and they alone brought to the industry. Some called it Glendale Goodness, some Mesa Magnificence, some just good ol' Desert Hospitality, but no matter what you called it, it was just something special, an intangible that made it clear: This airline was going places! (Like Kansas City.)

So, sure, the panel is probably going to choose the NIC. Duh!

Upsddown

My concern is that regardless how the arbs rule the NIC war will continue making it miserable for not just 5,000 but now for 15,000.

When Trump was asked why he used BK for several of his company's he responded because our legal system allows it. He further said, if you don't want BK to be part of a business process change the U.S. legal system.

I see similarities with the NIC award. The East used the means at their disposal to protect their constituents benefits. It's done every day by astute business men and yes, even shady characters, but it's legal until the laws are changed due to abuse. No different than what has occurred after NIC. As a result (particularly after TWA/AA) the laws were changed to MB no longer allowing abuse of the integration process like at TWA/AA and AWA/US.

As one that was not around during the NIC process, I can see the anger over the East not agreeing to implement immediately after the award. However, I can see that due to loop holes in the process at the time they took advantage of those loop holes to protect their pilots. That's what representatives are supposed to do for their members.

It reminds me of when someone wins a civil case under our legal system for an extraordinary amount of money and they are ecstatic yet they never collect a penny because the defendant uses means to protect and hide their money. Unethical yes, illegal no.

At no time over the past 9 years has a judge ruled that he or she has the authority to force the implementation of the NIC list. The East used their legal team to block the implementation of the list and the West used their legal team to force the implementation of the list. Both groups have tried to represent their respective groups and to date the East has been more successful.

Now we are under the MB. The decision of the NIC list will be decided one way or another very soon. But as Al points out, will it end there?
Once the arbs publish the award publicly it should be over, but my guess is it won't be.

If the East loses I fully expect a continued legal fight from them. The West will finally get their victory, hopefully for posterity. But what if the East wins? I can only assume they will happily accept the award. But what will the West do? Will they accept it or will they then become the new East and fight the implementation of the arbs award?

The interesting dynamic on the last scenario is the West now behaves in a manner that they have been critical of the East group since 2007 - not accepting an arbitration award.

I don't see how this ends up a happy place one way or another.

eaglefly

Yes, the Nic conflict was born of a legal/ethical foundation and the two shouldn't be confused. Could the East legally do what they did ? So far, yes. Was it ethical considering the term "Binding Arbitration" was agreed to by both parties ? No. Fast forward to now; Is it legal for the arbs to use the Nic ? Yes. Is it ethical to do that without protecting an innocent group who is also the majority in the present situation ? Arguably, No. AAPSIC showed what using the pure Nic would mean while still not harming the majority innocents.

As for the future, I think you're absolutely right. One way or the other, the warfare will continue both overtly and covertly. We will add it to the AA Native/TWA situation. This fragmentation will inevitably spill over onto the BOD regardless of whomever is the "Association" representing this hopelessly fractured pilot group. Of course, considering all that is this our worse albatross ? Actually, no. Worse then all that from a labor advancement perspective is the 70% + of grazing sheep who have little idea of what their contract entails, bust their humps daily to carry any and all water of others and couldn't even muster up the interest in checking a box on the last BOD elections and tossing it in their mailbox with return postage. Considering the actions of recent leadership (a loose term), who can blame them ?

Add it all up and without question not only are we as a pilot group headed for a VERY tarnished Bronze medal, but will essentially be the largest regional airline in the world when out total compensation is passed by the likes of Jet Blue, Spirit and perhaps even Allegiant. Like it or not (or admit it or not), we truly are 15,000 independent contractors flying in formation.

Upsddown

Eaglefly,

You often have some very good perspectives and knowledge to add. Sure would be helpful if you could temper your gloom and doom. Your credibility would be easier to accept.

AA pilots will not be regional pilots and they will not be surpassed by Jetblue, Spirit and Allegiant. A "BK contract" A330/777/787 CA at AA makes $400,000 a year with 16% additional in pension often working less than 12 days a month. Not exactly regional. A new hire makes $80,000 a year. Once again, not exactly regional.

And no, you won't be furloughed after the award so you can quit typing that as well.

Get rid of the gloom and doom, there is enough of that actually happening, but it's not furloughs and regional pay at AA.

R57 relay

Al-the east gave up on DOH, that argument is over.

Ups-good questions. What group is planning on keeping the money they will get from USAPA? I don't see any substantive legal effort from the east.

LIOG41

So what's the latest rumor for today? List out soon?

eaglefly

Sorry, but we'll have to disagree on the future of this airline. If that dings my credibility with you (or others), so be it. We all have to make our own assessments and believe me, mine is devoid of emotion.

I'm afraid from my POV, we already ARE regional pilots, at least from a schedule perspective. A month ago or so I unearthed an old Eagle bid sheet from 2005 and compared it to my May sheet here. Stunningly similar, almost identical with the typical 15 days of work for 80ish hours of flying. Dropping a trip is reason for popping a bottle of Champagne. The schedules (and flexibility due to drop or swap) was much better pre Chapter 11, I can tell you that. I had many green trips then. Yes, pay will be more then regionals, of course, but less then Delta and UAL and if you see the scale trend in the LCC's and considering our level of impotent leverage, they are certain to pass or at least equal us so perhaps we can call AA a "hybrid" LCC/Regional (Schedules, most bennies and most importantly TREATMENT to be that of a regional and pay to be that of an LCC). How many pilots make $400,000/year here even with 401(k) contribution ? I'll bet not many.

I thought you'd be more astute then taking that claim at face value. You seem much more observant then that. I'll have thousands of pilots junior to me here no matter how the SLI turns out, but my tongue-in-cheek responses to the ridiculous claims of others are too fun to pass up and as Purple said, it's all in fun.

Please tell me this completely shot over your head like a lightly loaded Lear Jet and you don't really believe I believe I'll be furloughed.

Again, I'm sorry if my sobering opinion of the future of this airlines product and pilot QWL/Compensation are seen as "doom and gloom". It's simply the most accurate reality based on the past and present and denial is something I detest and avoid at all costs. I've never implied regional pay, but there is more to "compensation" then pay and frankly, we suck. Worse yet, due to our fragmentation, apathy and lack of leverage, we have no method of altering our future absent to what Parker wants to give us. That's how I see it, but feel free to see it differently. I've heard a lot of pilots do that and seem very stressed because their realities aren't meeting their fantasies, goals and desires and frustration not surprisingly sets in. But such is the way of Airlinii Pilotus, a strange, but entirely predictable creature we are.

After all, why do you think the dopes running all these airlines are so successful against pilots in the first place ?

Siwwy piwots wiw newer wearn.

esadof

There has only ever been one rumor and that is the east won no Nic. and no Laa list. Final comments due July 27th due to one parties delay request so I wouldn't expect any list until after then.