Wiskey Driver

A lot of what you are saying I have no knowledge of. The fact that you speak with 100% absolute certainty can lead people to think that you are in fact one of the members of the arbitration panel. No one in the west nor LAA has spoken a word and they too are on these forums. Tell me this if you will, how is it that this panel of arbitrators has come to the conclusions that the east pilot above all others should be given special treatment and elevated to the highest levels on this new SLI? To hear you tell it, the east holds all the top spots with LAA and the west bringing up the rear. I have to admit I am rather confused and frankly I am beyond confused here as to just why a panel would bestow upon the east the crown jewels and the rest of us peasants are here to bow at your feet? Please explain this for me and try to do it in detail. As one of your members indicated, I am a clown so I really need the explanation in clown form.

WD

PurpleTurtle

We say we agreed to the 2005 TA and complied with it. You say we didn't, and spent millions trying to get a court to force us to comply with the 2005 TA according to your interpretation, all to no avail.

Whatever. The Nicolau was Fair and Equitable. We chose not to use it. Whine away.

PurpleTurtle

Oh the drama.

The BOA will publish a Fair and Equitable list, just like Nicolau did. And since all parties have already agreed to use it, we will!

Upsddown

WD,

You do realize your point is a two way street? I see as much coming out of the West to fester this continuing wound as I do coming out of the East.
You can argue to you are blue in the face about how it started but not a single East or West pilot will agree on the reason for its beginnings. But why it's continuing is becoming seen by all. Especially the LAA guys sitting on the sidelines watching this debacle.

JohnS was fully aware that the collapse of the system would not happen until February 2017. October is a point in time for single FOS (crew and aircraft mingling), it's not the date management flips a switch and all three groups have no differences. Just read the ongoing emails coming out of APA about the items that will not be implemented. Just look at all the particular items that will continue to be different between a former LUS pilot and a former LAA pilot. I didn't see any complaints from JohnS about the positive things you all kept that the other groups didn't have as the integration plodded along.

JohnS was a base rep when 95% of the base voted for the agreement. If this was so important to the West then maybe he should have given it more consideration before leading the base to the highest approval percentage of any base.

Time heals all wounds. In February the island will open and the movement can begin. You all have waited since 1983 to be able to bid another base. Soon you will have 11 choices. It's been 33 years, is four more months really that earth shattering?

This constant battered child portrayal is getting old. It might serve you all better next time to have base reps representing you that know what they are having you vote on. You may not like it, but 95% of you approved it.

Wiskey Driver

I get where it is you are coming from I really do. I also know time heals all wounds but it's never a specific amount of time and this is a time driven industry. In that I meant that as pilots we have all been on the clock since day one and that clock ticks on never stopping. There are people who have been robbed of time so it may take much much longer for that to heal.

Now regarding John and the votes, that's neither here nor there. Yes an overwhelming amount, you say 95% I say I believe you voted for this merger. I also say 3 parties with varying reasons all voted for it so let us not make this just a west issues because we both know that's not true.

I will not even attempt to argue the point you made of the larger airline and the ability to move. If there are fences it kills your argument if the west is used as bottom filler as Vendetta has alluded to it also kills your argument. Now absent those things and yes you have a very valid point however many will never see it that way and we both know this as well. Please don't kill the messenger here its just basic human nature and response.

I hope that you have a wonderful weekend planned, I myself will be fishing with my grandson. Its just one of those little things us clowns rather enjoy.

WD

Saul Rosenberg

Oh no, PurpleT's point is exactly the point. You and and your brotha-from-anotha-mutha on here love to say "that's not the point" but all you're really saying is "that's not the point I want all my legions of Internet fans to focus on."

And this whole thin about what we think we were owed good god do you not understand that the entire AA pilot group looks at the Nic-or-nada crowd and sees a bunch of LCC pilots who want to dominate in this completely new merger because of what they think they were "owed."

Truth....you think you know the truth? You can't handle the truth! The truth is you're all damn lucky to be AA pilots now, and it wouldn't have happened without US!


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Saul Rosenberg

Awe, gee....poor passive-aggressive little man, with all da false claims about what all da mean boys on da playground said

Earth to jack ass: who said anything about east being "elevated to the highest levels" or any of the other drivel you just posted? You seem to be unraveling, RB....hope you have some sick time, and that you know when to use it.


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justjack

I completely agree. It's already difficult to get an entire family out, but combined with a death in the family- this was even more egregious. The guy does not deserve anonymity and the rest of the West pilots should not be judged because of the actions one pilot. BTW this thread just gets worse by the day. I feel like such a sucker for checking it. I would actually just like to know what the hold up is.

Wiskey Driver

You really should call him uhh me

Clearly have no idea do you? That tail will eventually get caught if you chase it long enough.

WD

Upsddown

WD,

You start out by saying you get where I am coming from but then spend several paragraphs refuting where I came from. That seems to be what some of the others continue to confront you about.

Your description of healing and time only confirms it's the West that appears to be unable to move on if your view is a common one. It appears the West will never be satisfied until they get what is rightfully theirs "in their view". The problem with JohnS' constant stirring of the embers of the fire is that he never brought you the NIC. The NIC award brought the "opportunity" to one day get the NIC but it was never his and it was never the Wests until it was "actually implemented" (that may change September 15).

As to the 95% vote it is entirely "there". He lead you to an overwhelming acceptance for a reason. Why? Most other bases were more in the 60% acceptance range (STL the exception).
All three groups voted for it but East and LAA didn't vote for it by a 95% margin.

So why is it just a West issue? I'm not reading blast from CLT or PHL reps complaining about not being able to bid on the LAA bid in December like PHX is. I'm not reading LAA base reps complaining about not being able to bid the LUS bid like PHX is. The point you are totally missing is the East and LAA reps are not making this about the West. Neither is the East and LAA pilots. The West is making this about the West.

If you want to not have this be made about the West send your base rep an email and ask him to quit being the only rep complaining. The APA national blast was merely about politics and appeasing JohnS.

So why is this about the West?Because the East is content with what they brought to "this" merger. The LAA group is content with what they brought to the merger. There is only one group unhappy with what "they" brought to "this" merger (they didn't bring an implemented NIC list). As a result they want what the others brought and since they are being delayed access (forget about NIC it never was implemented) to the other group's jobs they make it about the West.

Is it the East pilots fault or the LAA pilots fault that they have a larger number of pilots currently retiring so they have more movement?

Is it the East or LAA pilots fault they had multiple bases in their system?

Is it the East or LAA pilots fault that their bases support LWB flying?

Is it the East or LAA pilots fault their hubs support Europe, Asia and South America flying?

Is it the East or LAA pilots fault that the West pilot hub, PHX, is the least strategic or economic hub in the system so it does not provide for the growth opportunities theirs do?

Which other group's base reps besides West is screaming they want out of their system? You say PHX has been stagnant the past eight years? What about the LUS system when they had 1500 pilots on furlough at one point? Go ask a LAA pilot about stagnation between 2001 and 2013 when they had over two thousand pilots on furlough while PHX was hiring. Remember my previous posts about the cycle of this industry and how it effects each airline differently?
The West is only feeling what East and LAA have already felt.

Look at the percentage of AWA pilots furloughed in the 2000-2010 timeframe and then compare that against the percentages of East and LAA. JohnS wants to complain about waiting four months to get access to bases, aircraft and routes he could have only dreamed of absent these mergers. Contrast that misery with the harsh and deep furloughs the East and LAA pilots experienced. It has taken some of their FOs 23-28 years to upgrade. What's the upgrade time in PHX with this horrible stagnation John refers to?
Whose had it worst the past 15 years?

Did he lead your base to a 95% vote under the premise he would deliver the implemented NIC? Under the understanding you would get a 66% pay raise? Under the premise you would start flying LWB aircraft making $300 an hour as a Captain as soon as the list is implemented.

What I'm an starting to sense (reading between the lines) is JohnS is becoming very frustrated at what he was really able to deliver (may yet pull off the NIC).

As to your comment on fences, what are you missing? JohnS is screaming foul because West pilots can't bid on these bids. He has seen the tenants of the award. If your "completely" fenced off then what does it matter whether West can bid or not? It matters because narrow-body and WB will not be fenced.

The point is this. The NIC award created an ugly situation for the past nine years that we cannot change. Doesn't matter who we think was unethical or immoral. What matters is that after nine years of a legal war we sit exactly where we sat the day the NIC was awarded - an unimplemented NIC list.

Now moving fast forward. Recognizing the West failed to get the NIC implemented, we sit on the eve of having for the first time in 33 years (AWA founding) the ability for PHX based pilots being able to bid 11 separate domiciles situated geographically all over the country. Having the ability to immediately bid for 767 flying to Europe and South America.

The eventual opportunity to bid LWB aircraft flying to Asia, Sydney, Aukland and other destinations all while making $300 an hour. Nearly a 100% increase over what any PHX pilot was making just a few short years ago while banking 60% more in pension contributions.

As your response started out, "I can see where you are coming from". Can the PHX group not understand the events of the past nine years cannot be changed so dwelling on it will only make you miserable while achieving nothing? Can they not see that contrary to JohnS' continued "poor oh us" mantra the PHX group is getting ready to enter the most enhancing and rewarding point of their entire aviation career?

Contrast the change in opportunities the PHX group will gain in February with what the East and LAA group will
get. Who really gets the least new opportunities of the three? The most opportunities?

Can the PHX group not see to the outside observer, knowing the NIC was an outcropping of the LUS/AWA merger not the LUS/AA merger, that while JohnS continues to cry foul about the abuse of the PHX group that it is they that are on the precipise of receiving some of the most incredible opportunities of their entire careers. Can your group, JohnS, not find happiness in that?

As this continues to come to a head, unless PHX gets the NIC award, I think this will become more about JohnS trying to rewrite the failures that may have occurred by continuing to wage a war than it will be about the PHX group realizing and acknowledging the fantastic opportunities the PHX based group then have.

It's just really hard to find compassion for those claiming they are mistreated when they got a 66% pay raise, 60% pension raise and will soon be free to go to 10 other bases and fly to parts of the world they may have never seen before and something they haven't previously been able to do at their previous carrier.

Is there not any good in any of this for the PHX group?