SO - Where's the SLI?
08-21-2016, 03:25 PM
#1511
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 431
If we were to look at some of the facts it sort of kills your argument. USAIR was in bankruptcy its second in as many years, fact undisputed. USAIR had half of its pilots on furlough another indisputable fact. I can not comment intelligently on the facts of CAL so I will take your word for it. It was clear that USAIR was about to die. SWA made a move into PHL based upon that fact. They began service on one of the lucrative shuttle routes PHL-BOS. SWA had not contemplated Mr. Parker making a run on the bankrupt carrier.
WD
WD
You make a complete jump to a conclusion that A.) Is not conclusive and B.) Cannot be proven.
US was in BK a total of 20 months during 2002 - 2005. AWA was in BK a total of 38 months durung 1991 - 1994.
From the period 1994-2002 US pilot contracts exceeded AWA contracts by a wide margin. Had LUS had AWA contracts in place, LUS may have lasted a lot longer before it may have needed to secure BK relief.
As a result of the restructuring required of US during BK, US furloughed many of its pilots. As a result of the restructuring required of AWA during its BK, AWA furloughed many of its pilots.
SWA made a run on one of US' hubs. SWA eventually retreated and US kept its hub alive. SWA made a run on one of AWA's hubs. SWA eventually drove AWA out of its only hub outside of PHX and as a result AWA closed down its only pilot domicile outside of PHX.
In 2001 AWA had ongoing concerns if it did not receive a government loan. In 2005 US had ongoing concerns that needed to be addressed.
Who saved who? Or might they have saved each other?
The problem with mergers is everyone wants to pick one day in time. A pilot serves a 40 year career. An airline can be around 80 years but one day in time ends up defining its existence.
Imagine if UAL flush with cash in 1991 swooped in durung 1991 and purchased AWA while it was in BK. Would you agree the UAL pilots should have stapled you to the bottom of their list (or whatever) had they done so since they weren't in BK and had never been in BK but AWA was?
What about in 2001 when Parker was contemplating shutting AWA's doors if they weren't able to get a government loan. If DAL, once again flush with cash, not in BK and had never been in BK (and was years away from filing BK) swooped in and bought AWA would you agree that you should be stapled (or whatever) to the bottom of their list since AWA was on the verge of closing its doors?
In a lot of ways mergers are very myopic, looking at one date. It's the larger more long term view that should really matter. There were several points of time at all three carriers over the years that had a specific day been chosen it would have been devastating to its pilots' careers. Yours included.
You provide no conclusive evidence or statements that US would not exist today and that it would not have found some way to survive just like AWA did.
In fact when you look at their histories they are very, very similar.
So since we have now gone full circle on the subject I intentionally avoided because it can be neither proved nor disproved the issue at hand remains our future.
Noone knows the arbs decision. But on October 1, whether you win or lose it's time to move on.
Everyone is getting sick and tired of the whining, the acquisitions and the outright inability to realize you can't change the past and once this award comes out its time to move on, win, lose, or draw.
That goes for everyone but it seems the West is stating its refusal to do so unless it gets what it wants or what it expects.
08-21-2016, 05:13 PM
#1514
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,775
How do any of your points make it clear USAIR was about to die?
You make a complete jump to a conclusion that A.) Is not conclusive and B.) Cannot be proven.
US was in BK a total of 20 months during 2002 - 2005. AWA was in BK a total of 38 months durung 1991 - 1994.
From the period 1994-2002 US pilot contracts exceeded AWA contracts by a wide margin. Had LUS had AWA contracts in place, LUS may have lasted a lot longer before it may have needed to secure BK relief.
As a result of the restructuring required of US during BK, US furloughed many of its pilots. As a result of the restructuring required of AWA during its BK, AWA furloughed many of its pilots.
SWA made a run on one of US' hubs. SWA eventually retreated and US kept its hub alive. SWA made a run on one of AWA's hubs. SWA eventually drove AWA out of its only hub outside of PHX and as a result AWA closed down its only pilot domicile outside of PHX.
In 2001 AWA had ongoing concerns if it did not receive a government loan. In 2005 US had ongoing concerns that needed to be addressed.
Who saved who? Or might they have saved each other?
The problem with mergers is everyone wants to pick one day in time. A pilot serves a 40 year career. An airline can be around 80 years but one day in time ends up defining its existence.
Imagine if UAL flush with cash in 1991 swooped in durung 1991 and purchased AWA while it was in BK. Would you agree the UAL pilots should have stapled you to the bottom of their list (or whatever) had they done so since they weren't in BK and had never been in BK but AWA was?
What about in 2001 when Parker was contemplating shutting AWA's doors if they weren't able to get a government loan. If DAL, once again flush with cash, not in BK and had never been in BK (and was years away from filing BK) swooped in and bought AWA would you agree that you should be stapled (or whatever) to the bottom of their list since AWA was on the verge of closing its doors?
In a lot of ways mergers are very myopic, looking at one date. It's the larger more long term view that should really matter. There were several points of time at all three carriers over the years that had a specific day been chosen it would have been devastating to its pilots' careers. Yours included.
You provide no conclusive evidence or statements that US would not exist today and that it would not have found some way to survive just like AWA did.
In fact when you look at their histories they are very, very similar.
So since we have now gone full circle on the subject I intentionally avoided because it can be neither proved nor disproved the issue at hand remains our future.
Noone knows the arbs decision. But on October 1, whether you win or lose it's time to move on.
Everyone is getting sick and tired of the whining, the acquisitions and the outright inability to realize you can't change the past and once this award comes out its time to move on, win, lose, or draw.
That goes for everyone but it seems the West is stating its refusal to do so unless it gets what it wants or what it expects.
You make a complete jump to a conclusion that A.) Is not conclusive and B.) Cannot be proven.
US was in BK a total of 20 months during 2002 - 2005. AWA was in BK a total of 38 months durung 1991 - 1994.
From the period 1994-2002 US pilot contracts exceeded AWA contracts by a wide margin. Had LUS had AWA contracts in place, LUS may have lasted a lot longer before it may have needed to secure BK relief.
As a result of the restructuring required of US during BK, US furloughed many of its pilots. As a result of the restructuring required of AWA during its BK, AWA furloughed many of its pilots.
SWA made a run on one of US' hubs. SWA eventually retreated and US kept its hub alive. SWA made a run on one of AWA's hubs. SWA eventually drove AWA out of its only hub outside of PHX and as a result AWA closed down its only pilot domicile outside of PHX.
In 2001 AWA had ongoing concerns if it did not receive a government loan. In 2005 US had ongoing concerns that needed to be addressed.
Who saved who? Or might they have saved each other?
The problem with mergers is everyone wants to pick one day in time. A pilot serves a 40 year career. An airline can be around 80 years but one day in time ends up defining its existence.
Imagine if UAL flush with cash in 1991 swooped in durung 1991 and purchased AWA while it was in BK. Would you agree the UAL pilots should have stapled you to the bottom of their list (or whatever) had they done so since they weren't in BK and had never been in BK but AWA was?
What about in 2001 when Parker was contemplating shutting AWA's doors if they weren't able to get a government loan. If DAL, once again flush with cash, not in BK and had never been in BK (and was years away from filing BK) swooped in and bought AWA would you agree that you should be stapled (or whatever) to the bottom of their list since AWA was on the verge of closing its doors?
In a lot of ways mergers are very myopic, looking at one date. It's the larger more long term view that should really matter. There were several points of time at all three carriers over the years that had a specific day been chosen it would have been devastating to its pilots' careers. Yours included.
You provide no conclusive evidence or statements that US would not exist today and that it would not have found some way to survive just like AWA did.
In fact when you look at their histories they are very, very similar.
So since we have now gone full circle on the subject I intentionally avoided because it can be neither proved nor disproved the issue at hand remains our future.
Noone knows the arbs decision. But on October 1, whether you win or lose it's time to move on.
Everyone is getting sick and tired of the whining, the acquisitions and the outright inability to realize you can't change the past and once this award comes out its time to move on, win, lose, or draw.
That goes for everyone but it seems the West is stating its refusal to do so unless it gets what it wants or what it expects.
08-21-2016, 08:43 PM
#1515
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 1,353
This is not about AOL its about every pilot here and how we feel about one another.
WD
08-21-2016, 09:12 PM
#1516
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: A330
Posts: 173
It has nothing to do with that at all and everything to do with how we all collectively respond to one another. The fight that has ranged on for years has done so because of a combined hatred. West hates east and vice versa. It has become commonplace for people such as yourself to instantly think this is about AOL when in reality its about how everyone acts. The fact that you come to that conclusion is not by accident, it's because you've come to expect it. The nastiness already exists and if you fail to see or understand that just take a look at the responses. This has already been the worst merger fight in the history of the profession and the fact that I think its only going to get worse has brought about nothing but attacks from many. Not all mind you but a number of you. Airmail seeks understanding and this is proven in his responses. Now look at your, TR and Ardo's responses. In yours you seek to inflict some sort of pain in the form of insults but you fail to see how this is nastiness in nature.
This is not about AOL its about every pilot here and how we feel about one another.
WD
This is not about AOL its about every pilot here and how we feel about one another.
WD
Will your side abide by this arbitration reguardless of the outcome?
08-21-2016, 11:23 PM
#1517
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: tri current
Posts: 1,485
Excellent post Upsddown, one every pilot should read and then re-read. This crap of stapling guys to the bottom of a list just because their carrier has been mis-managed at some point in time has got to stop.
TP
TP
08-21-2016, 11:47 PM
#1518
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 1,353
WD
08-22-2016, 12:41 AM
#1519
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 321
The irony in your post is epic. You do realize that the east committee proposed placing AA pilots hired 15 years ago behind third list Easties fresh from the regionals? But the East argues those third listers had a brighter future due to poor management at AA. So which is it Typhoon? Date of hire or a sliding scale based on circumstances? Or whatever happens to benefit you at the moment?
08-22-2016, 01:53 AM
#1520
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: A330
Posts: 173
Yes or no works. I'll ask it another way, would you support more litigation going forward?
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