SO - Where's the SLI?
08-21-2016, 01:09 PM
#1491
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: A330
Posts: 173
Kirby and Parker said it.. You act like Phoenix was thriving. Look where all the new hires go, it certainly is not fish bowl. They go where they are needed. The rapid hiring on the east and the number of retirements really proves how flawed the nic really was.
08-21-2016, 01:36 PM
#1492
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 431
It's so very difficult to answer your questions because I am one individual and I can not say what others may think or feel. I know that the hard feelings over this thing run exceptionally deep and there are people that will never let it go. In the end right is right and wrong is wrong. I can agree with a lot of what you've stated but you also left out some very large pieces such as where was USAIR on that date? How were they doing as a carrier? Well we both know the answer is they were in bankruptcy about to die. They received new life in the form of AMERICA WEST that lil airline in the desert started in 1983. In the time since then, they have enjoyed employment that was not assured in 2004. They have enjoyed growth that was all but terminated in 2004. They have enjoy upgrades that were furloughs in 2004. I think it would be safe to say that you have left out some of the biggest pieces in your post. That's ok because you were attempting to make a point and by mentioning those things the point would be somewhat lost. I haven't the foggiest idea what's to come in the future or how some will respond. I can only guess based upon what has transpired so far which is why I said what I said. The potential exists for people to be extremely angry and that will last for some time.
WD
WD
I didn't mention those issues because none of that can be proved. And I knew that would be your defense. It is every pilot's response - that which can't be proven.
AWA was on its death bed twice in the 90's and according to Parker's public statements within days of shutting its doors post 9/11. Yet it managed to survive.
CAL went into BK in 1983 and 1990 and ultimately survived both BK's. UAL was floundering in 2002 when it filed for BK but it survived. Delta and Northwest filed for BK in 2005. Both exited BK in 2007 and both survived.
How is it US was dead and yet the others didn't die?
In 1982 Putnam over extended BN, they were competing head to head with AA and couldn't recover from Putnam's aggressive expansion plans.
In 1989 after a couple of years of Lorenzo cannibalizing Eastern for Continental's benefit the IAM struck forcing EAL to file BK.
In 1991 after failed attempts to begin to compete with its competitors by transitioning its airline so it could feed its international flights with the purchase of National and following the devastating aftermath of Lockerbie PAN AM filed for BK.
Each of these carriers ceased to exists.
After these three BK's airline managers learned how to use the BK process to revitalize and repackage their airlines.
How many major airlines have ceased operations since Pan Am did so in 1991? Once you answer that question, then answer why.
I could argue given Parker's public accounts of AWA's need for a government bail out after 9/11, AWA has come the closest of any airline since Pan Am from actually ceasing operations.
US was sick but it wasn't vanishing from the planet. As was the case with CAL, AWA, UAL, DAL, NWA and AA, US would have found a means to survive. Like DAL and NWA that way was merging with another troubled carrier. You can stick a pin in a calendar and say AWA was doing better than US at the time of the merger but look at its own past. Who knew what its own future would be and look at the structure of its own operation including its pilot contract.
Your argument is the "superior" argument made by the LAA pilots, an argument you and every other West pilot objects. You were superior to US therefore .....,
Between 1991 and 2005 no US major airline in the United States had ceased operations. US wasn't going to either. Can I prove that? No. Can you prove it was going to cease operations? No.
So realizing neither of us can ever prove whether US would or would not have ceased operations had it not merged with AWA, I didn't mention it.
Back to point, you, and I mean you, really need to let the anger go. Maybe by you taking a free step others will see the futility of this as well with the continued senseless jihad that will never change what has occurred in the past.
Quite frankly, and I don't mean for this to be as condescending as it sounds, it's getting sad to watch people continue to be so miserable over something they can't change.
08-21-2016, 01:50 PM
#1494
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 1,353
WD
08-21-2016, 02:12 PM
#1496
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Posts: 212
Here we go. Provide some paper or some numbers please not obscure statements made by Doug or Scott. It should be rather easy to dig up some Ch11 paperwork. Its a public corporation so if they were considering closing the doors or even anywhere near close to that there will be a paper trail. Ask R57 he is rather good a digging up sec filings.
WD
WD
Ball in your court. (no pun of your future intended court proceedings)
http://www.jamhoff.com/wp-content/up...isionAward.pdf
08-21-2016, 02:14 PM
#1497
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 1,353
WD,
I didn't mention those issues because none of that can be proved. And I knew that would be your defense. It is every pilot's response - that which can't be proven.
AWA was on its death bed twice in the 90's and according to Parker's public statements within days of shutting its doors post 9/11. Yet it managed to survive.
CAL went into BK in 1983 and 1990 and ultimately survived both BK's. UAL was floundering in 2002 when it filed for BK but it survived. Delta and Northwest filed for BK in 2005. Both exited BK in 2007 and both survived.
How is it US was dead and yet the others didn't die?
In 1982 Putnam over extended BN, they were competing head to head with AA and couldn't recover from Putnam's aggressive expansion plans.
In 1989 after a couple of years of Lorenzo cannibalizing Eastern for Continental's benefit the IAM struck forcing EAL to file BK.
In 1991 after failed attempts to begin to compete with its competitors by transitioning its airline so it could feed its international flights with the purchase of National and following the devastating aftermath of Lockerbie PAN AM filed for BK.
Each of these carriers ceased to exists.
After these three BK's airline managers learned how to use the BK process to revitalize and repackage their airlines.
How many major airlines have ceased operations since Pan Am did so in 1991? Once you answer that question, then answer why.
I could argue given Parker's public accounts of AWA's need for a government bail out after 9/11, AWA has come the closest of any airline since Pan Am from actually ceasing operations.
US was sick but it wasn't vanishing from the planet. As was the case with CAL, AWA, UAL, DAL, NWA and AA, US would have found a means to survive. Like DAL and NWA that way was merging with another troubled carrier. You can stick a pin in a calendar and say AWA was doing better than US at the time of the merger but look at its own past. Who knew what its own future would be and look at the structure of its own operation including its pilot contract.
Your argument is the "superior" argument made by the LAA pilots, an argument you and every other West pilot objects. You were superior to US therefore .....,
Between 1991 and 2005 no US major airline in the United States had ceased operations. US wasn't going to either. Can I prove that? No. Can you prove it was going to cease operations? No.
So realizing neither of us can ever prove whether US would or would not have ceased operations had it not merged with AWA, I didn't mention it.
Back to point, you, and I mean you, really need to let the anger go. Maybe by you taking a free step others will see the futility of this as well with the continued senseless jihad that will never change what has occurred in the past.
Quite frankly, and I don't mean for this to be as condescending as it sounds, it's getting sad to watch people continue to be so miserable over something they can't change.
I didn't mention those issues because none of that can be proved. And I knew that would be your defense. It is every pilot's response - that which can't be proven.
AWA was on its death bed twice in the 90's and according to Parker's public statements within days of shutting its doors post 9/11. Yet it managed to survive.
CAL went into BK in 1983 and 1990 and ultimately survived both BK's. UAL was floundering in 2002 when it filed for BK but it survived. Delta and Northwest filed for BK in 2005. Both exited BK in 2007 and both survived.
How is it US was dead and yet the others didn't die?
In 1982 Putnam over extended BN, they were competing head to head with AA and couldn't recover from Putnam's aggressive expansion plans.
In 1989 after a couple of years of Lorenzo cannibalizing Eastern for Continental's benefit the IAM struck forcing EAL to file BK.
In 1991 after failed attempts to begin to compete with its competitors by transitioning its airline so it could feed its international flights with the purchase of National and following the devastating aftermath of Lockerbie PAN AM filed for BK.
Each of these carriers ceased to exists.
After these three BK's airline managers learned how to use the BK process to revitalize and repackage their airlines.
How many major airlines have ceased operations since Pan Am did so in 1991? Once you answer that question, then answer why.
I could argue given Parker's public accounts of AWA's need for a government bail out after 9/11, AWA has come the closest of any airline since Pan Am from actually ceasing operations.
US was sick but it wasn't vanishing from the planet. As was the case with CAL, AWA, UAL, DAL, NWA and AA, US would have found a means to survive. Like DAL and NWA that way was merging with another troubled carrier. You can stick a pin in a calendar and say AWA was doing better than US at the time of the merger but look at its own past. Who knew what its own future would be and look at the structure of its own operation including its pilot contract.
Your argument is the "superior" argument made by the LAA pilots, an argument you and every other West pilot objects. You were superior to US therefore .....,
Between 1991 and 2005 no US major airline in the United States had ceased operations. US wasn't going to either. Can I prove that? No. Can you prove it was going to cease operations? No.
So realizing neither of us can ever prove whether US would or would not have ceased operations had it not merged with AWA, I didn't mention it.
Back to point, you, and I mean you, really need to let the anger go. Maybe by you taking a free step others will see the futility of this as well with the continued senseless jihad that will never change what has occurred in the past.
Quite frankly, and I don't mean for this to be as condescending as it sounds, it's getting sad to watch people continue to be so miserable over something they can't change.
I really don't know where you get that I am angry. To be angry one has to really care and I just don't. I have seen much in this industry, some good and some not so good. People are going to be angry it's human nature. I agree with you in terms of new routes, new aircraft, new bases etc. There will be some who feel that they were robbed and others will feel the joys of illicit gains. I am angry about one thing, the leather jackets. That I am livid over.
WD
08-21-2016, 02:21 PM
#1498
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 1,353
Arbitrator Bloch discussed AWA lack of a pot to pee in, in a SLI arbitration of the US, AWA dispatchers unions.
Ball in your court. (no pun of your future intended court proceedings)
http://www.jamhoff.com/wp-content/up...isionAward.pdf
Ball in your court. (no pun of your future intended court proceedings)
http://www.jamhoff.com/wp-content/up...isionAward.pdf
WD
08-21-2016, 02:26 PM
#1499
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Posts: 212
Well that is just not going to happen now. There are those who will not agree with me but never in the history of this profession has one been so very nasty. The real nastiness has yet to been seen but wait for it because it will be epic and history in the making.
WD
WD
Your lack of posts would be helpful to your peers.
08-21-2016, 02:26 PM
#1500
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Posts: 90
No, you wrote very specific words about "the real nastiness has yet to be seen" and "it will be epic and history in the making" or some sort of typical WD-speak. So, I ask, just what sort of action in the planning stages are you aware of? And what's the reason these plans are being made?
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